Genealogy Chat

Having made a mess of my tree a couple of times in the past I’m now being ultra cautious and am hoping an ‘expert’ will have a look at the evidence and tell me what they think.

My Great x 2 Grandmother was Mary Ann Elizabeth Johnson. I have her marriage certificate to my Great x 2 Grandfather Thomas Butcher. The marriage took place in 1853 in Plumstead, Kent. They went on to have 9 children the youngest being Robert John Butcher born 1869 in Woolwich, Kent – more of him in a minute.

The marriage certificate names Mary Ann’s father as James Johnson, a Carpenter. The most likely candidate I can find for James Johnson is this guy

Name Age
James Johnson 1807 Benenden Kent Carpenter 44
Mary Ann Johnson 1812 Westminster 39
James Johnson 19
William Charles Johnson 14
Emma Johnson 8
George Johnson 5
Ellen Johnson 3
Edward Johnson 1850 Plumstead 11 Mo

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1590; Folio: 281; Page: 30; GSU roll: 174827.

I can’t find him in 1841 to see if Mary Ann Elizabeth is living at home but I did find this in 1891
Name Age
Edward Johnson 1850 Plumstead 41
Elizabeth Johnson 38
William A Crafter 14
Robert J Butcher 1870 Plumstead Nephew 21 <<<<<<<

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 540; Folio 22; Page 38; GSU roll: 6095650.

I sent for the birth certificate of Edward Johnson and his father was James, a Carpenter and his mother was Mary Ann Dubber. The marriage is on Ancestry as are the baptisms of some of their children. There is a Mary Ann (no Elizabeth) daughter of James Johnson, Carpenter and Mary Ann.

Is this evidence strong enough for me to add Mary Ann Dubber to my tree as my Great x 3 Grandmother?

My niggling doubts are caused by finding a William Johnson, aged 5 in the 1841 with a Barnard and Elizabeth Betts and finding a Johnson connection to the Betts family in the 1851.

In the 1841 Barnard Betts is 50 and Elizabeth is 52. From memory it was a second marriage for both of them, Elizabeth's first husband being a Johnson, there is a daughter aged 45 with them in 1851.

That's a thought, I was trying to find out about Mary Ann (possibly Dubber) but the Elizabeth Betts in 1851 could have been James' mother. One of the witnesses on his marriage certificate was an Eliza Johnson. The image on the 1851 is really poor but I think it has a 'U' for unmarried.

Is this them in 1841?

1841 England Census
Name: Mary Johnson
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1834
Gender: Female
Civil parish: St Mary Newington
Hundred: Brixton (Eastern Division)
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address: Villa Road [I think]

Registration district: St Mary Newington
Sub-registration district: St Peters
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Jos Johnson 30 - carpenter; born in county
Mary Johnson 25 - not born in county
James Johnson 10 - not born in county
Mary Johnson 7 - not born in county
William Johnson 5 - not born in county
Eliza Johnson 3 - not born in county
Sarah Johnson 5 Mo - born in county

Now Jos is a variation of James that I hadn't though of - that looks like a definite possibility Ozi.

Most of the family fits with the 1851, Mary was old enough by then to be working away and the younger girls could have passed away as so many of them did.

Jos is a Carpenter, although in all the censuses up until 1871 he does state that he's from Benenden in Kent not Surrey.

Which makes the Betts family a red herring unless the enumerator called at one house and in the meantime young William scooted round to the other and got counted twice. I'll have to see if I can find out far apart they were.

Thank you Ozi and PigletsPal that's given me a few more avenues to explore.

I think I'm 99% convinced that Mary Ann Dubber is GGG Grandma.

Where and when was Mary Ann Elizabeth Johnson born?

Rose

Her year of birth varies between 1832 on her marriage certificate (where she may have lied) and 1834.

The first census I havae her on is 1871 as Mary A Batcher born London, in 1881 she's also born simply London and in 1891 Mary A Higgins (re-married) she's from The Borough, London, which I think refers to Southwark

I see the marriage witnesses for Mary Ann Johnson and Thomas Butcher are Robert Wade and Eliza Johnson - I don't know if this helps, or just adds to the confusion:

There's a marriage in Newington dated 26/5/1844 for a Robert Wade and Elizabeth Dubber and on the same day a William Johnson (father James Johnson carpenter) and Eliza Wise

The baptism you saw for Mary Ann Johnson on Ancestry seems to be right, as Redcross Street (now Redcross Way) is very near to Borough tube station.

Thank you Christina, especially for the information regarding Borough station and Redcross Street.

Like you I'm not sure if I'm now even more confused. The William Johnson that I have, son of James, would only have been 8 in 1844 so I can probably rule that marriage out, although there could still be a more tenuous family connection. The other marriage between Robert Wade and Elizabeth Dubber could certainly stand closer inspection, until I bought the birth certificate I'd never even heard of the surname Dubber.

I've now had a chance to look at the certificates of those marriages that you found Christina and I see that both Elizabeth Dubber and Eliza Wise were living at the same address so it's definitely a lead to follow.