Genealogy Chat

...a boy born to a single mother putting his grandad down for his fathers name on the marriage register?

thats the long and short of it, heres the complicated explanation.

i have been researching my family tree on my dad side for a few years on and off and over time have come across lots of little familes (couples with children) and i kept all this information in hope they would all fit into the jigsaw at some point. well now i have managed to place all but one little family. i have worked out that all the Pierpoint's in this area have come from two brothers moving themselves and their familie's here at the beginning of the 1800's.


(so now it gets a bit complicated)
on the 1871 cencus i find my great great great grandad John Pierrepont livng in carlton, with his wife Sarah and their 6 children. but also here is their grandson 'joseph' aged 4 months, who i have no idea which child of john's he belongs too. i cant seem to find anything.
cut to the next cencus, 1881, i see John Pierrepont with his wife Sarah and three of their children, but this time a grandson called 'john' who is 10.

could 'john' and 'joseph' be the same person?

i have searched high and low for the birth record for either of them and all i can find is a John Pierrepont born to an Anne Pierrepont (single woman)

john senior did have a daughter called anne and she would have been at the right age (18) to have a child at the time john would have been born. she gets married when she is 20 to a John Handley, so it would have been possible that she could of had a child previous to this.

now the piece of the jigsaw i cant fit in, i have a john pierrepont married to a Sarah Anne Aslin, they have 7 children (many whom die in infancy) on thir marriage entry his father is listed as John Pierrepont.

i tried to look for a marriage entry for John Pierrepont (the one listed as the grandson)(to find out who his parents were)
and i can only find the one, listed above.

so could he have been born to a single woman, lived with his grandparents and then when it came to him getting married and not knowing who his dad was, putting his grandad down in place of his father?

any help or theories would be much much much appreciated!

thanks in advance, amy xxx

Do you have his birth cert ?
It is possible grandpa registered the boy's birth to cover up a scandal

i don't have his birth cert, i'm afraid as funds are very very tight at the moment. and i didn't want to go around buying ones i didn't need.

so i should try and get the birth certificate for the John that i found who married Sarah Anne Aslin, then i can see who his parents are to see if it is the John who is listed as the grandson of my great great great grandad?

very confusing, would be much simpler if they all had different names!

thanks for your help.

I cant see a Joseph birth reg, so yes it should be John !

Amy

I do not know where Carlton is - but have you looked to see if there are any parish records for Carlton - because if he was baptised the baptism record will show at the least the fathers full name and the mothers christian name - Parish records on line are free to search

Irene

carlton is in nottingham. i have spent days at the archives checking the records and the only john pierrepont i can find is to an anne pierrepont who is listed as a single woman. i have checked other nearby areas too but can't find any other entries. and the john i did find to the anne pierrepont would have been a few years old when he was babtised if he was the john pierrepont on the census.
thanks for your help

it is perfectly possible


Firstly, because he grew up with his grandfather and grandmother, and may have believed they were his parents.

OH has a distant relative who only discovered about 30 years ago (at the age of 40 something) that his "sister" was actually his aunt, and his "parents" were really his grandparents. Another sister was his mother .....we're talking somewhere about the late 1930s for his birth.



The second reason why you might see grandfather's name on a marriage certificate is plain and simple ..... a name in the father's column looks "better for the inlaws". Many illegitimate children put a name in that column ........ it could be made up, a male relative, family friend, or a notable in town.


Causes many a wild goose chase looking for the father!!!!




sylvia

Male Pierrepont registered Barnsley June 1870 9c 139 - this should give
you the name of the mother.
The child could have been brought up in mother's maried name.
One of my ancestors had a son before marriage - when she married
he was named after her new husband's surname and that is the surname he used all his life.
Irene

Hi Amy,

I have that on my ancestors marriage cetificate. the illegitimate son of the daughter put's his Grandfather down as his father on his marriage certificate. The Father (who is actually the Grandfather) occupations matches perfectly and he also puts the same father down on his 2nd marriage.

For an illegitimate child to but a fathers name on the marriage certificate would save face.


Dee x

I am in exactly the same situation... I think one of my ancestors put his grandfather on his marriage certificate instead of his father. There was no father on the birth certificate and lived with his grandmother (grandfather had died) for most of his childhood.

thanks so much for your help.
i think john and joseph are the same person and the john i found born to an anne is the grandson on the census (i am going to order the birth cert today)
i also think that the marriage i found between the john pierrepont and the sarah ann aslin, is the one from my tree, as if he was born to a single mother it would make sense for him to put his grandad down as his dad, i can see that now.
also i can't find another john pierrepont of the right age on the 1891 census, the only one i can find that is the right age is newly married to sarah ann aslin, living with her mother.
so it means that if that isn't the john in my tree, that the john in my tree would of died or dissapeared, but i can't find a death record that matches.

if the birth certificate i find doesn't list a father, i will know if it is right becuase of the address? is that right.
and is there a way to tell if the john who marries the sarah ann, is the john that is the grandson of my g-g-g-grandad?

thanks again, amy xxx

I have a few marriages where one or both of the couple were illigitimate.
It is normal for the surnames of the fathers to match that of bride and groom.
However I feel that the first name cannot be matched to anyone in particular.It could be the real father/stepfather/grandfather/uncle/etc.

i think i have cracked it! i think the john who married the sarah aslin, is the john who is the grandson of my great-great-great grandad.
i spoke to my dad who threw some more light on the situation, he says the aslin's were fairly well to-do so i'm sure marrying into a good family he wouldn't want to leave his fathers name blank on his marriage certificate, also my g-g-g-grandad john was a railway labourer, on the marriage certificate john lists his fathers profession as 'engine driver', a more than slight step up from railway labourer! (trying to impress the in laws no doubt!)
also on the marraige certificate, i re-looked at the witnesses, one of them is sarah ann handley, the anne in my tree who was mother to the grandson john of my g-g-g-grandad married a john handley two years after she would of had john. and as she was only 20 it is highly likley that she had more children. the sarah ann handley that is witness to the marriage could of been john pierreponts step sister.

if this isn't the same person, then the john pierrepont in my tree dissapeared and this other john pierrepont (of the same age and location) popped up.

i tried to get his birth certificate today but there was avery long que and i think i was at the wrong registration office, so i might just order it off the internet...

thanks again, amy xxx