Genealogy Chat

I believe I may have found a 1911 census entry for my FW Hill.

Am I correct in assuming that individuals signed the form themselves? If so then I now have an address and an occupation.

I also have a signature on WW1 Attestation Forms, a letter and a marriage certificate.

Is there an option for having the signatures compared.

I can see similarities between them but also differences and I need to remember they were written in an eight year time frame.

1911 census returns were filled in by people living in the house. Though often the head of the house, it might be filled in by others, so a bit tricky for comparisons.
You are better to confirm your find with other means, such as a marriage cert for comparison of occupation for example.
Jan

There are often points on signature that you can compare, the curly bits and the slope etc.

I instantly recognised my grandpas signature, because he was a chauffeur he could borrow the car for family weddings, he turns up as a witness on a lot of certs!

Thanks Brummiejan and Lindsey. Appreciate your replies.

I have peered at the signatures until my eyes are squinty and being an indecisive individual just can't make up my mind.

As for confirmation by other means. That is the problem and why I am clutching at this one-sheet-of-paper straw!! Must add he is the only person living in the house.

AuntyS AuntyS! Gmail them to me, I wanna see!

Anything that gets us closer to proving we aren't related. :-P :-D

And you know I'm not indecisive.

Is he a signwriter???

An m.cert from the GRO will not have an original signature.

An m.rego in the registrar's own register will have the original signature, but it will only be there if it was a rego office marr, or the registrar attended the marr which would pretty much only be for RC marrs after 1898. However, most local offices don't send images of their regos, but copies.

The original signature will be in the parish register, which is probably deposited in the local records office.

ScotlandsPeople seem to take images of the local regos, rather than those held by GROS.

Thank you for all your replies. I have been out in the hot Australian winter sun gardening for about six hours. Not my idea of an idyllic afternoon. Mgnv thank you for your response. In this complicated search the man was born in UK, was orphaned, moved to Australia, enlisted in the AIF, served in France, returned to Australia and married here, had two daughters, and disappeared. I therefore should have a mixture of Australian and UK certificates. You will note the use of the word should!! It ain't happening but this is one very slight chance I might be able to place him in London.

Janey, your offer will need very careful consideration. I can not rush into these decisions. If I don't send them to you, we will never know if we are related. If I do send them to you and we aren't it will be absolutely devastating, to whom I am not sure. On second thoughts of course we are not related, therefore there is no reason why I should waste time in trying to decide whether or not to send them to you.

Is he a signwriter, no of course not, he's a brain surgeon, company director and character actor in a local TV drama!!!

Actually his occupation on the 1911 census is house painter. Remember the letter he wrote to the Australian authorities asking for a loan to purchase signwriting equipment????? The bureaucrat who knocked back the request said the proposed purchases were more suited to a house painter than a sign writer.

He is also single, an employer and resident in Hammersmith London.

When we got married at the United Reform Church in the '70's we and our witnesses signed all three copies of the register. One copy was given to us, one kept by the church and the third forwarded to the local RO, so, at least in out case, the RO copy will have original signatures.

As far as the 1911 census is concerned, don't assume for one minute that the signature is that of the householder. For example my wife knows that at least two of her great grandfathers were unable to write even their names, yet both their census returns give the impression they could. We think that they were completed and signed on their behalf by one of their children.

I have also come across one return with the words on behalf of after the signature and another which says the mark of the person concerned..

So as always in this hobby, don't take anything at face value.

Thanks InspectorGreenPen. I will keep that in mind. In this case I'm hoping the man could write, well I know he could write but I need to know if he wrote this signature.

Janey the thingies are sent. Please note I did not send kisses with the files. Do not know where the XXXX came from or what they represent. Definitely not kisses, that is for sure.

As I said in the gee whizz you will need detective work to decipher it.

There are strong similarities, particularly the capital F in Frederick and capital W in William on the two documents where the name is spelled out in full.

But the 1911 English census is almost copperplate, very regular.

A quirk is that the first "r" in Frederick is the more modern humpy kind, while the second one is the older style (like a tight "v" with the next letter coming off the top rather than the bottom).

- edit - I was looking at the entry rather than the signature. They seem to be in the same hand, but the signature isn't as neat.


However, on the 1916 attestation paper, he uses the same "r" in both places -- and he spells his first name Fredrick, no "e". ... Well, that's at the bottom of the second page, "signature of person enlisted". On the first page, it's Fred William Hill.

He presumably filled out all the particulars on the first page (except his age which is very copperplate, and the "Cook" under that for trade or calling). And the writing for the name in the particulars has the same capital F and W, with the two humpy "r" in Frederick, and no "e" missing.

On the marriage certificate it's F W Hill, and the W is totally different, rounded at the bottom, not pointy. You're sure that's a signature and not something that has been filled in? The two signed names look like they could be in the same hand, both scratchier than the rest of the entries on the certificate. ... But the other signatures on the page, witnesses and officiant, are distinctive signatures.

Well. Hmm.

I'd find some other signatures of Frederick / William Hills to compare to! Did everybody write their capital "F" like that in the 1911 census, for instance?

I haven't looked at the stuff on line yet. Your directions were incomprehensible ... I know I did look at them once before ...

Oh, but -- basically, he's a Frederick William Hill -- name given in full as he seems to have been wont to do -- who is a house painter, of the right age and in the right place, in 1911.

Looks like him to me.

The ages ...

24 in 1911 census

29? yrs 4 months on enrolment 18 Feb? 1916

30 at marriage 3 May 1919.

The first two add up. Why would he lie about his age in 1919 when his wife was 36??

The first two give us about Oct 1886 ...

Hi Janey, Thank you for looking for me. I thought there was a reasonable resemblance and as you say the other info fits. This is starting to sound like my Hill thread.

Interesting about his change of age when he returned from WW1. If you happen to find his docs on NAA you will also find a letter from a woman who is listed as his NoK "friend" on his attestation papers.

She writes to the authorities complaining FW Hill did not arrive at the port for disembarkation as she was advised.

Nearest I can make out is that he disembarked elsewhere and choofed off to marry the widow lady who was quite a few years older than him and already had three children and lived miles and miles away from his intended destination.

Now tell me truly does not that sound like a Hill??!!

I very clearly remember the poor lass standing on the dock waiting for him, the dear family friend, never to return to her. ;)


Did you put this here in the course of your FWH certificate ordering?

Births Sep 1886
Hill Frederick William Wandsworth 1d 705

28/05/2010 Frederick William Hill born 7 Jul 1886. 42 Wandsworth Bridge Road Wandsworth, Surrey. Father Charles Hill. Mother Sarah Caroline Hill formerly Revell.
>>> Occu father, house painter. Birth reg by mother 28 Jul 1886. Reg District Wandsworth.

Marriages Mar 1877
Hill Charles Wandsworth 1d 550
Revell Sarah Caroline Wandsworth 1d 550


Now I'm turning your thread into the one-person free-for-all you make out of mine ...

I think I have that certificate amongst the enormous pile of certificates, all bearing the monniker FW Hill, which lurk around my desk somewhere. I will look it out.

Trouble is according to his marriage cert father was Ernest. And don't go there. There is no Ernest who had a child Frederick Hill. And I still ike the original school record we found with Frederick as an orphan.

By the way to add to the free for all. I wanted to look for someone else on FMP, funded myself some credits. Migration info needed was 1856 to 1857. Not available till 1890. Bother!!

Then I found Boyd's Inhabitants of London and Family Units. What an incredible source of London information. So I squandered some of my credits and put in FW Hill. Yes he comes up OK, born in St Petersburg Russia, with a wife, family and associated other rellies. Not quite the answer I was looking for.

And no there is no Ernest Hill on the list.

Wonder if I can find my Kimberleys on the site. Hmmmmmmmm!!!

Hiya Sherlock.

I have had a thought re your painter/signwriter.

Many shops had "signs" painted on the outside walls especially the end of the block.Painted with house paints but still signwriting?

The signwriter thing was on an application Fred made in Australia for post-war assistance with business expenses. We think he was trying to pass himself off as a signwriter in order to get assistance, when he was really a housepainter -- the military declined his application on that basis. ;)

(LK -- my excessive interest here is because AuntyS discovered not long ago that she had a gr-grfather named Ernest Hill -- and promptly tried to claim my gr-grfather Ernest Augustus Hill/Monck and make me her cousin! :-D

We've been trying to sort out whether we really might be related, as a bit of a private joke, the likelihood of that being about nil. Especially since I recently tracked down the one missing sibling of my Ernest, William 1844 -- who, I now know, did indeed have a son Ernest Hill -- my Hills all named their kids for their siblings -- who promptly died in infancy.)


AuntyS ... I've sent you this and assorted other bumph ...


In 1901, we have, in Hammersmith, Fulham reg dist, all born in Hammersmith:

William O Stevers 23 - Stevens, of course - paper hanger
Beatrice M Stevers 21
Beatrice M Stevers 3
William O Stevers 1
Frederick E Stivers 2 8 Months
Harriet Hill 60 - mother in law - washerwoman
>> Frederick W Hill 19 - brother in law - painter's labourer - it says *17*, not 19


Births Mar 1884
HILL Frederick William Fulham 1a 214


I think this is most likely the 1911 Frederick you are looking at:

HILL FREDERICK WILLIAM 1887 24 Fulham
- single, house painter, born Hammersmith, living Hammersmith, alone in household

even though the age is out.

Maybe see whether Beatrice is anywhere nearby in 1911?

STEVENS BEATRICE 1880 31 Fulham

and check out the other Frederick the same age:

HILL FREDERICK 1887 24 Fulham


1891 in Hammersmith (I think it said 1881 in what I sent you, typo)

Charles Hill 54 - Corr Shoe Braker??
Harriett Hill 49
Lucy Hill 20
Beatrice Hill 11 (Stevens in 1891)
Frederick Hill 7


Oh, and I see I haven't yet pitched a fit about multiple threads, and now lookups on the Genealogy Chat board. We might best return to a Frederick Hill thread, assuming there still is one on Ancestors.

Returning to Frederick Hill thread wherever it might be.

Well leave me a breadcrumb!

How have we managed to be both awake at the same time? You up early? ;-)


edit

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1207472

on Ancestors