Genealogy Chat

you're welcome

Just wanted to say a big thank you for all you help and advice.

Silvie

well,well!

I have found that a Rosetta Harris died aged 32 in 1890 in Mile End, so your theory could be right. if you are, then where do you think Rachels two daughters Rose and Etta would have been in 1891 when the census was taken? they would only have been 10 and 12 years old.

have you any idea what Benjamin would have been doing as an athletic instructor (what did this job mean in 1901)?

the other mystery is the music hall artiste occupation. I was told that Benjamin was reputed to have a wonderful singing voice. do you know anything about music halls and how I could find out more please

seeing the name of Rose and Etta Rogers on the 1901 census listed as "daughter in law" which used to mean the same as what we now call "step daughter"


I wonder if Rachel was his second wife, here's a possible 2nd marriage for Benjamin

BMD Search result details Civil Registration event: Marriage

Name: HARRIS, Benjamin
Registration District: Mile End Old Town
County: London
Year of Registration: 1892
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume No: 1C
Page No: 921

MarriageFinder™: Benjamin Harris married one of the following people

JACK, Jeseie Amelia
ROGERS, Rachel
TEESDALE, Robert Emmerson

ok found this in which Benjamin's occupation and David's year of birth seems to tie in with your grandfather's marriage cert

1901 census

Address: 94, Churston Avenue, West Ham

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Disability Where Born

HARRIS, Benjamin Head M 45 1856 Athletic Instructor Middlesex
HARRIS, Rachael Wife F 43 1858 Middlesex
HARRIS, David Son M 21 1880 Athletic Assistant Middlesex
HARRIS, Michael Son M 14 1887 Middlesex
HARRIS, Louis Son M 12 1889 Middlesex
ROGERS, Rose Daughter-In-Law F 22 1879 Bethnal Green London
ROGERS, Etta Daughter-In-Law F 20 1881 Bethnal Green London

I found this family too but thought they were another family because the names were different. as far as I know there was no Michael or Rachel in the family at that time.

thank you again.

I wonder if Rachel is Rosetta and if Charles is Michael

the other info seems to fit

1891 census

Address: 87, Exmouth Street, Mile End Old Town

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Disability Where Born

HARRIS, Benjamin Head Married M 32 1859 Tailors Assistant Whitechapel London
HARRIS, Rachel Wife Married F 32 1859 Whitechapel London
HARRIS, David Son Single M 12 1879 Scholar Mile End London
HARRIS, Rebecca Daughter Single F 8 1883 Scholar Mile End London
HARRIS, Michael Son Single M 6 1885 Scholar Mile End London
HARRIS, Louis Son Single M 2 (2 1/2) 1889 Mile End London

Benjamin Harris was a general dealer according to his marriage certificate in 1877. The address is 19 Carter Street, Hounsditch for both him and Rosetta.

The birth certificate of Rebecca Harris in 1883 gives an address of 3 Skidmore Street, Mile End Old Town, and Benjamin was then a Clothier's salesman

The birth certificate of Lewis Harris in 1888 show an address of 86 Redmans Road, Mile End Old Town, and Benjamin was still a Clothier's salesman.

When Rebecca marries in 1903 the address given for both her and her husband Louis Birne is 5 Derby Street, Euston Road, and although Benjamin is deceased by then, he is still down as a clothier's salesman.

When Charles Harris marries Kitty Wright in 1914 (19th October), the address given is 3 Lydia Street, Mile End Old Town. Benjamin is now recorded as being a Music Hall Artiste!

What is really curious is that when my grandfather Arthur David Harris marries my grandmother on 6th October 1914 (about a fortnight before his younger brother Charles), Benjamin's occupation is given as Athletic Instructor! It appears that he was a man of many talents! The address at the time of marriage is 27 Edwards Road, Mile End Old Town.


Hope this helps.

Silvie

can you tell us the addresses on each of the marriage certs please

what was Benjamin's occupation on the certs?

Sorry, I forgot that I do have the marriage certificate of Louis and Harry's father Benjamin. He married Rosetta Simmons on 26th December 1877 at the Great Synagogue. His father is shown as being David Harris (deceased)

Thank you again. Silvie

I'm afraid I couldn't find them on the 1891 census or the 1901 census. Louis (spelt Lewis) shows up on the 1911 census, living with his sister Rebecca and her husband Louis Birne.

I've not been able to find any record of a marriage of Louis (Lewis). He was recorded as being single in the 1911 census, aged 22.

Charles Harris married Kitty Wright on 19th October 1914 at Mile End Old Town. His father is recorded as being Benjamin Harris (deceased) on the marriage certificate.

If it helps, I have a marriage certificate for Charles and Lewis' sister Rebecca when she married Louis Birne in 1903. Her father Benjamin is shown as being deceased then, but I have not been able to find any other record of him.

I believe that I have been able to find the birth cerfificates of Louis and Rebecca, but cannot find that for Charles or my grandfather Arthur David (who I think was born in about 1878). The mother's name on the certificates for Louis and Rebecca is Rosetta Harris, formerly Simmonds (one is spelt SIMMONS and the other SIMMONDS).

Thank you so much for offering to try to help me. I know very little about this side of my family, and there is nobody left to ask.

Silvie

have you found either of the brothers on 1891 census please?

What are their parents details?

who did they marry?

Thank you very much to those of you who have replied to my message, and have given me information. I'm new to this website and don't have subscriptions on others, and am still trying to find my way around, so please bear with me if I get things wrong.

My great uncle Lewis Harris was born in 1888 - this fits with him saying that he was 22 in the 1911 census - where it states that he was a fish fryer in Leighton Buzzard! He was born in Mile End Old Town, and I assume that he lived in the area, although I have been unable to find him in the 1901 census.

Regarding my great uncle Charles Harris I have been unable to find his birth record, although he says he is 28 at the time of his marriage in October 1914, so assuming he is telling the truth, he would have been born in 1886. Likewise, he also is from Mile End Old Town, and once again, I was unable to find him in the 1901 or 1911 Census.

If anyone is able to shed any further light on them I would be most grateful. The family story is that the wrong brother was awarded a medal in the Bantams, but this is a story that's been passed down through the years.

Thank you everyone,
Silvie

Military Records are held on Ancestry.co.uk. If you give a few more details - date or year of birth, and where they were born or lived, someone can have a look for you if you don't have a subscription.

Most, if not all, men were awarded at least one campaign medal, but for other types such as for Gallantry/Mentioned in Des patches, you could try searching The London Gazette

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/

Please be aware that a large percentage of the WW1 Military personnel records were destroyed during WW2 bombing. There is a possibility that these are included in that number.

You could try searching the web for sites such as this one -

http://www.iwm.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.2872

A bantam, in British army usage, was a soldier of less-than-average height.

During the First World War, the British Army raised battalions in which the normal minimum height requirement for recruits was reduced from 5'3" to 5'. This enabled otherwise healthy young men to enlist.

Bantam units were drawn from industrial and coal mining areas where short stature was no sign of weakness. The name derives from the former town of Bantam in Indonesia, from which a breed of small domestic fowl is thought to have originated. Bantamweight was a weight category in boxing that had originated in the 1880s and produced many notable boxers.

The first bantam battalions were recruited in Birkenhead, Cheshire, after Alfred Bigland, MP, heard of a group of miners who, rejected from every recruiting office, had made their way to the town. One of the miners, rejected on account of his size, offered to fight any man there, and six men were eventually called upon to remove him. These were men used to physicality and hard work, and Bigland, incensed at what he saw as the needless rejection of healthy men, petitioned the War Office for permission to establish an undersized fighting unit.

When the permission was granted, news spread across the country and men previously denied the chance to fight made their way to Birkenhead, 3,000 in all being divided into two battalions in November 1914. The requirement for their chest size was one inch more than the army standard.

The men became local heroes, with the local newspaper, The Birkenhead News, honouring the men of the 1st and 2nd Birkenhead Battalions of the Cheshires with enamel badges - "BBB" - Bigland's Birkenhead Bantams. Soon renamed the 15th and 16th Cheshires, they undertook gruelling training and served in some of the most hard fought battles of the war, such as the Battle of Arras in 1917. Eventually two whole divisions, the 35th and the 40th, were formed from 'Bantam' men, but casualties, transfers to specialized Army tunneling companies, the introduction of conscription and replacement of some battalions by units from other divisions resulted in a major influx of taller men and eventually the Bantams became indistinguishable from other British divisions

2 relatives, brothers Charles and Louis Harris in this Army unit. I believe Louis was awarded a medal of some kind. How do I find out any information which may be held about them by this Brigade (don't laugh but I think this unit was set up specifically for short men who wanted to play their part during th War).



Silvie