Genealogy Chat

Great news Alison. I wouldn't think that pensions would be the reason that they finally decided to make it legal. After all by 1960 both were way past the age at which they would have become eligible to receive their state pensions. Probably much more likely that they just decided to tidy loose ends up before it was too late.

Hi Jan, the marriage cert says he was a bachelor and she was a spinster, I think they lived together as man and wife, even though they weren't officially married. They are my father in law's grandparents and no one in the family ever knew this (or if they did, it wasn't spoken about)!
Alison

That's great Alison, thanks for the update. I wonder if Tom was already married, though he was pretty young. Does it indicate anything on their marriage cert? Interesting isn't it? Main thing is you can move on, good news.
Jan

Update!
It seems they did tie the knot, but not until 1960. I just received the certificate today and it is them, aged 70 and 65. So in 1912 when the first marriage did not take place he would have been 22 and she only 17 (and pregnant). I wonder why they decided to do it in 1960 (perhaps something to do with pensions??) Tom Barker was a miner. I now have their fathers names so can continue my research.
Kind regards
Alison

Hi Alison,

I'm glad that things appear to be moving on. The fact that the 1912~1921 births tie in seems to imply that married or not the couple made their life together. I think that getting a copy of the 1960 marriage certificate might be a good move.

As far as how quickly information can be found, there is no magic involved. It all depends on knowing where to look and having access to those places.

Good luck

Oh, all very interesting, thank you for your help.

I think I will order the 1960 certificate to see if the marriage took place then.

The Barkers on the 1911 census seem very likely, their first daughter was born 5 Aug 1912 Hilcote Lane, Blackwell, I have the birth certificate and yes the holmes/Barker births between 1912-1921 tie in.

It's all very exciting - what puzzles me (in my inexperience) is how quickly you can find this information when I have been search for ages!! :-)

More practice needed!!

Jan,

You may be right, perhaps love did win out in the end. :-\

Births Mar 1890
Barker Tom Mansfield 7b 79

Name: Tom Barker
Birth Date: 7 Dec 1889
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1973
Age at Death: 83
Registration district: Mansfield
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 3c
Page: 425

1911:
BARKER, Tom Head Married M 59 1852 Hewer Coal Miner Shelford Nr Nottingham VIEW
BARKER, Alice Wife Married
39 years F 58 1853 Derby Riddings Nr Alfreton VIEW
BARKER, Herbert Son Single M 35 1876 Hewer Coal Miner Derby Seabrooks VIEW
BARKER, Tom Son Single M 21 1890 Hewer Below G Coal Miner Tit Row Huthwaite Notts VIEW
BARKER, William Boarder Single M 44 1867 Hewer Below G Coal Miner Notts Shelford Nr Nottingham VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
20305 Reference:
RG14PN20305 RG78PN1217 RD428 SD3 ED6 SN193

Registration District:
Mansfield Sub District:
Blackwell Enumeration District:
6 Parish:
Blackwell

Address:
New Lane Hilcote

Births Sep 1893
Holmes Ellen Mansfield 7b 76

Name: Ellen Barker
Birth Date: 2 Jul 1893
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1978
Age at Death: 85
Registration district: Mansfield
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 8
Page: 0347

Only 1 other Barker/Holmes marriage recorded in the Mansfield registration district between 1900~1921 but 5 Barker/Holmes births registered there between 1912~1921 plus this one in 1927:

Births Sep 1927
Barker Tom Holmes Mansfield 7b 206

If her father had been deceased, the consent could have been given by her mother, or other legal guardian.

So, she lied , and was found out

The red plus sign only means the record was added since the last update on FreeBMD

That's very interesting Alison - must say I have never heard of this! Presumably this is an annulment?

Might they have re-married later?

Marriages Mar 1960 (87%)
BARKER Tom HOLMES Mansfield 3c 517
HOLMES Ellen BARKER Mansfield 3c 517 Entry added since last update

(The comment is what has printed out as there is a red plus sign after Ellen's details, not sure what it means!)

maybe the 'father' had left the family and as she didnt know where he was, said he was deceased...........

only guessing.

I would imagine someone knew it was or had taken place and enquiries were made to the R/Office where it was revealed.,


She was under 21........or she wouldnt have need any permission from her father or anyone else.
she may also knowing lied about a deceased father.

You wont get any more information as it by law never took place and was possibly annulled from the start......

bet she got a telling off......


did they marry at a later date.?

I recently applied to the GRO for a copy of a certificate for the marriage of Ellen Holmes and Tom Barker, which I found in June qtr 1912, Mansfield district. This was the reply I got from the GRO:
"This marriage has been cancelled by the registrar as in 1912 it was required that the woman had to have her father’s permission to wed, she had stated that he was deceased but obviously at some stage there was doubts to the truth of this information".
Anyone have any thoughts on why this might be and how to get more information on this?