Genealogy Chat

Sorry 'patchem' I wasn't meaning to be derogatory but was just making the point that one can't always rely on second or third hand information received or obtained as distortions occur along the way {a bit like Chinese whispers}!

Denis,
If you look at the original of the 1861 census you will see the problems in transcription. It is not all over the place, it is what you get.

Thanks to MarieCeleste for the further details on Annies marriage {James Cox is definitely the spouse}. A for the witnesses, Henry would be an uncle I think, but not sure about Emma {could be a sibling but only 14 years old}.

Reply for 'patchem'. 1861 census information looks all over the place. There is no Eastbury in Gloucestershire bur two Westbury's one near Brisol, the other near Cinderford. Purbury was mentioned earlier but there is no such place that I am aware of, and I think the birth place is likely to be Prestbury just outside Cheltenham where I was told Joseph was born. The Golden Lane and bootmaker details are OK.

Thanks again

A bit more on that 1886 marriage:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: Annie Ovens < Spinster
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Spouse Name: James Cox < Gardener, a bachelor
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Sep 1886
Parish: West Hackney
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Joseph Ovens < Bootmaker
Spouse Father Name: John Cox < Gardener
Register Type: Parish Register

James and Annie both lived West Hackney.

Witnesses Henry Ovens and Emma Ovens.

1861 England Census
Joseph (LOOKS LIKE OVENS ON THE ORIGINAL)
Age: 36 (PROBABLY NOT) Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
spouse's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Eastbury, (POSSIBLY WESTBURY) Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: St Luke Ecclesiastical parish: Charterhouse St Thomas
County/Island: Middlesex Country: England
Street Address: Golden Lane
Occupation: Boot maker
Registration district: St Luke Sub-registration district: Whitecross Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 9 Household schedule number: 37 Piece: 206 Folio: 54 Page Number: 7

Joseph 36 PROBABLY NOT 36
Ann 22

Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 206; Folio: 54; Page: 7; GSU roll: 542591.

No, 'Potty', I haven't found the family in the 1861 census either. I am assuming they were in London by this time.

Denis

Not all births were registered. Compulsory registration did not start until 1875 and Joseph could have been born before registrations started in September 1837.

Have you found Joseph and Annie in the 1861 census? They were married before the census, so should be together.

This is an answer for 'patchem'.

It looks as though you have found Annie Ovens as listed above, working as a servant {do you have an address for that please}? Also the marriage details look promising {in the right area and about the right age- I have Annie born in 1866}. The Cox surname crops up a few times in my FT so this could also be an interesting turn.
Joseph's father's name was William and I believe this might have been mentioned on his marriage certificate.
Re Joseph's birth year I am still waiting on a reply from the Ovens contact who supplied me the information. She advised that she had the birth certificate although currently mislaid, but seemed to think he was born in 1839; however not finding him on BMD could suggest otherwise. So I cannot give a definitive answer immediately.
I do not have details of the Ovens family in 1841 or 1851 censuses, but being born possibly just outside Cheltenham in Prestbury, there may be details from that area. I don't know when they moved to London so cannot narrow that down for you.
I hope that answers your questions to date.
Having now identified the male Ovens siblings from 1861 onwards it would nice to find their families too!

Denis

Is this Annie's marriage?
Marriages Sep 1886
COX James Hackney 1b 802
OVENS Annie Hackney 1b 802

Added:
And this looks like her in 1881:
1881 England Census
Anna Ovens
Age: 16 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Servant Gender: Female
Where born: St Lukes, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Mary Islington County/Island: London
Country: England Street Address: 23 St Marys Rd
Occupation: Housemaid
Registration district: Islington Sub-registration district: Islington East
ED, institution, or vessel: 43 Piece: 262 Folio: 38 Page Number: 7

Joseph W. Corfield 71
Emma A. Corfield 45
Elizabeth A. Corfield 20
Emma Bones 32
xxx Anna Ovens 16

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 262; Folio: 38; Page: 7; GSU roll: 1341057.

Have you found him in 1841 or 1851, have you got his Father's name on the marriage certificate, and what are your thoughts on his actual birth year?

Denis, the 1911 census states that Joseph and Annie had eight children, all still alive, so Annie born 1866 must have been alive somewhere.

Hello,
Further to my earlier post I have found the eighth child, namely Annie Ovens born in 1866, but as she is not shown on the 1881 census she was either away from home on that day or had died.

Thanks again for your help.

Denis :-)

1881 England Census
Joseph Owens Age: 47 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Annie Owens
Gender: Male Where born: Purbury, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Hackney County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 1 Baileys Lane
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Boot & Shoe Maker
Registration district: Hackney Sub-registration district: Stamford Hill
ED, institution, or vessel: 5 Piece: 287 Folio: 33 Page Number: 36

Joseph Owens 47
Annie Owens 44
William Joseph Owens 19
Henry Owens 17
Charlotte Owens 11
Emma Owens 9
Caroline Owens 7
Mary Ann Owens 4
John Charles Owens 2

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 287; Folio: 33; Page: 36; GSU roll: 1341062.

Joseph's son is William Joseph - is this the confusion?

There is no mention of him having William as another name on the actual marriage certificate, either:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Joseph Ovens
Name: Joseph Ovens, bachelor, shoemaker
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Spouse Name: Annie Evans, spinster
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 18 Mar 1861
Parish: Finsbury St Luke
Borough: Islington
Father Name: William Ovens, shoemaker
Spouse Father Name: William Evans, hawker
Register Type: Parish Register

Both lived Golden Lane. Witnesses Henry Ovens and Hannah Evans.

The 1911 census gives 8 children, all living, which ones have you found?
Thanks

Added:
Is this his death.
Deaths Mar 1917
Ovens Joseph 83 Edmonton 3a 762
If so, where did you get his birth information and the middle name William?

Just for rference:
1871 England Census
Joseph Ovens Age: 34 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Anne Ovens
Gender: Male Where born: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: St Luke Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas Charterhouse
Town: London County/Island: London Country: England Registration district: Holborn Sub-registration district: Whitecross Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Household schedule number: 96 Piece: 407 Folio: 34 Page Number: 18
Joseph Ovens 34
Anne Ovens 32
Joseph Ovens 10
Henry Ovens 8
Annie Ovens 5
Charlotte Ovens 2
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 407; Folio: 34; Page: 18; GSU roll: 824627.

He doesn't seem to have a middle name on the record of his marriage:-

Name: OVENS, Joseph
Registration district: St. Luke
County: London
Year of registration: 1861
Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 1B
Page no: 638

MarriageFinder: Joseph Ovens married one of the following people:

EVANS, Annie<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
COLLETT, Eliza Julia Georgiana
BRADSHAW, Walter

Kath. x

What is the name of Joseph William's father from his marriage certificate?
Thank-you

Added:
Are you sure of the birth year as he appears to be born in 1835 in 1891 and 1901, and 1837 in 1871?

There appears to be two Joseph Ovens born in Gloucestershire in 1839 but I can only find one on the BMD website. They were both born between April and June that year. The one that I have located is Joseph Samuel Ovens born in Iron Acton under BMD reference Chipping Sodbury A/Jun 1839 11.239. He married a Catherine Marshman and they had 10 children.
However the Joseph I am looking for was Joseph William Ovens born in Cheltenham in 1839 and who married Ann {or Annie} Evans in London where they had a number of children. I have identified five of then starting in 1861 but am having difficulty in finding the remainder of the siblings. In the 1871 census they lived at 95 Golden Lane, Finsbury London; in the 1891 census they lived at 4 Baileys Lane, Stamford Hill, Hackney; and in 1901 and 1911 they were living at 1 Lees Cottages, Baileys Lane, StamfordHill.
Another source of confusion is that on his marriage certificate Joseph is listed as William Joseph and not Joseph William.
Can anyone fill in any of the gaps for me please?

Thanks in anticipation

Denis Wright