Genealogy Chat

Hi
I have found a puzzle with some of my ancestors and their surnames, and wondered if anyone would change their surname by deed poll in the 1880's? My great grandad is variously called Peter Lythgoe, Peter Hill and Peter Lythgoe Hill. He lived with James and Elizabeth Hill, and appears on all the Census returns as 'son.' However, he was born in 1850 as Peter Lythgoe, and James and Elizabeth did not get married until 1851, so I suspect that he is not their child.
Peter's children are all registered at birth with the surname Lythgoe, but when my grandma got married she was married in the name of Hill. The names Hill and Lythgoe appear randomly as second names for some of my grandma's siblings. Could people just change their surnames at this time, or would there be a record of it somewhere?
Thanks for reading this.

Hi Mandy, basically they just did it to frustrate us because they knew we'd be trying to find them generations later!

Seriously, there wouldn't be any formal change of name they just called themselves after one or other of the parents, particularly where legitimacy was an issue.

Why do you think he's not their child? Not unusual at all for children to be born before the parents wed.

Where were they from?

Hi MarieCeleste
Thanks for replying. The only reason that I suspected that he was not their child was because of the name Lythgoe, which does not appear to have any direct connection to James Hill, and his wife Elizabeth was a Leigh before she got married. On the 1861 Census there is a boarder lodging with the family by the name of Thomas Lythgoe, so I suspect a loose family connection somewhere. Both Peter and Thomas were born in Bedford, which was a parish which is part of Leigh registration district (between Wigan and Warrington, Lancashire), while Peter's brothers and sisters were all born in Warrington.
I think you're right about them just causing mischief for their descendants, but it gives us something to think about I suppose!!

Have you ordered your great grandfather's marriage certificate to see who he names as his father (if anyone)? Who did he marry and when?

There is an unsourced tree on Ancestry that has a Peter Lythgoe Hill (with a photo) born in Bedford, Lancs but birth year is given as 1845. They don't have any parents for him and just have Ruth as his wife's name.

Do you have his birth cert?

Rose

There are 2 births shown in Leigh district:

There's this from Lancsopc:

Baptisms: 7 Apr 1850 St Stephen, Astley, Lancashire, England
Peter Lythgoe - Child of James Lythgoe & Elizabeth
Abode: Bedford
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: A. Hewlett
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1853, Page 53, Entry 421
Source: LDS Family Search


Rose

From LancsBMD:

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
LYTHGOE Peter Culcheth Wigan & Leigh WELCH CUL/8/473
LYTHGOE Peter Culcheth Wigan & Leigh WINSTANLEY CUL/8/487

Rose

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
LYTHGOE James WINSTANLEY Elizabeth Leigh Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROL/10/55


Marriages Mar 1850
Lythgoe James Leigh 21 439
Winstanly Elizabeth Leigh 21 439

Rose

Other set of parents who appear in 1851 with a Peter Lythgoe.

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1849
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
LYTHGOE John WALSH Ann Astley St. Stephens Wigan & Leigh C1L/1/84

Rose

Odd that he's also the son of a James and Elizabeth. Are you sure Elizabeth's maiden name is Leigh? Do you have any of the children's' birth certs?

Rose

Using http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html

Marriage: 10 Dec 1849 St Stephen, Astley, Lancs.
John Lythgoa - (X), minor Weaver Bachelor of Astley
Ann Walsh - (X), minor Spinster of Astley
Groom's Father: Wm. Lythgoa, Weaver
Bride's Father: John Walsh, Collier
Witness: Hugh Roberts; Jane Walsh
Married by Banns by: Alfred Hewlett
Register: Marriages 1843 - 1875, Page 42, Entry 84
Source: LDS Family Search

Thanks for all the info. I suspect that either James and Elizabeth, or John and Ann are Peter's parents, and I think it may be just coincidence that they have the names James and Elizabeth. I think that they are a separate couple to James and Elizabeth Hill (nee Leigh). The reason I think James Hill's wife is Elizabeth Leigh is that I have found a record of a marriage in Warrington in 1851; on the 1861 Census Elizabeth's year and place of birth is1831 in Lymm, and I have found a record of a baptism of Elizabeth Leigh in 1833 in Lymm. There may of course be more than one Elizabeth Leigh, so it's not conclusive.
Assuming the above is correct, I wonder what the relationship is between the Lythgoes and the Hills, and why Peter was brought up as their son?
I haven't got any certificates yet - I'm not really sure which would be the best to get. I don't want to buy the wrong ones.

Mandy, if you know for definite who your Peter Lythgoe (Hill) married then that would be a good starting point.

John and Anne are on the 1851 census with Peter so it's not them.

I think James and Elizabeth must be the parents. I can find no sign of them in 1851. It could be James is the one who changed his name.

Once you have Peter's marriage cert, you try for his birth cert, or one of his siblings to confirm Elizabeth's maiden name. As you can see, certificates are very important.

Rose

Have you been able to trace back on James Hill's family at all?

I wondered if one of Thomas Lythgoes' brothers, Peter, James, Henry or William, had a child with a sister of James Hill.

James Hill may then have offered to adopt his unmarried sister's child. Then Peter could understandably call himself Lythgoe Hill.

Just a thought, of course.

Thanks for all the info and ideas. I think I will order Peter's marriage cert and take it from there. I'm convinced there must be some family connection between the Lythgoe's and the Hill's, so this will be my next plan of action.