Genealogy Chat

A man is born in 1875, lies about his age and joins the Army in 1890 (have records). Deserted in 1892 and disappears. Turns up in Dublin in 1905 and we believe was with irish Milita (something like our T/A's). Is thrown out for non-attendance. He is in England again by 1907. Is it likely he would have (a) been able to join up again (b) been called up for WWI or (c) would he have been too old.

This is my Granddad about whom I have conflicting information. My Mother told so many porkie pies or maybe she had been told these untruths and, therefore, didn't know any better.

If someone has any ideas on this I would be very grateful.
Thank you

Phyll

The maximum age for conscription (1916-1918) was 56 however the oldest known battle casualty was Henry Webber who died in 1916 at the Battle of the Somme aged 68.

So it is possible that a 19th century Soldier could have volunteered to serve in WW1 and although he may have not been sent overseas his record of service may be in the surviving WW1 documents.

Post his name and I am sure people will be happy to look for you in the available online records.

Chris

Thank you Chris
His name was Frederick James West. I have some records of when he was in the Army from 1890 to 1892 but can't find any WWI records. He was born in Brighton and served in the 'Buffs'. Hope this is of some use.
Many thanks again
Phyll

Have you got him in 1911, just to give some more information?

Here he is in 1911
1911 census transcription details for: Plumpton Lane Plumpton Sussex
Print Close
National Archive Reference:
RG14PN5041 RG78PN223 RD77 SD1 ED4 SN144
Reg. District: Lewes
Sub District: Chailey
Parish: Plumpton
Enum. District: 4
Address: Plumpton Lane Plumpton Sussex
County: Sussex
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
WEST, Frederick James Head Married M 35 1876 Farm Labourer Sussex Brighton
WEST, Sarah Wife Married
6 years F 38 1873 Co Wexford Gorey
WEST, Louisa Margaret Daughter F 3 1908 Sussex Plumpton
WEST, Frederick John Son M 0 (7 MONTHS) 1911 Sussex Plumpton

not ww1 but posting in case you havent got it

irst name(s): Frederick James

Last name: WEST

Calculated year of birth: 1873

Parish of birth: Brighton

Town of birth:

County of birth: Sussex

Age at attestation: 32 years

Attestation date: 26 May 1905

Attestation corps: DUBLIN CITY R G A (MILITIA)

Attestation soldier number: 3331

Discharge rank:

Discharge corps: Royal Garrison Artillery - Dublin

Discharge soldier number:

The National Archives reference: WO96 / 1336 / 298

Hello Phyll

Your post is so interesting - I too have a GGrandfather who joined up in the mid-1890s - but didn't stay for long! I have also been told by my Dad (who either got it from his Mum or his Grandfather) that his Grandfather was a soldier in WW1 and came home after being gassed.

I think it is possible that a deserter could join up in WW1 - records would have been manual and I don't know what questions would be asked if a man (aged 39+ or even 14) volunteered - may be 'Can you just sign here?'

Another thought - what did his friends/family call him - Fred or Frederick or James or Jim or Rick? Such a choice if a man was off to the Recruitment Office and intended 'doing his bit'. That's if he wanted to use his own name. If you have the Regiment it might be worth checking different combinations of his name, see if it turns anything up.

I mentioned that I had information from my Dad - and we know that family stories cannot always be relied on for accuracy - however, there is often an element of fact somewhere along the line and with a bit of digging it often comes out - I suggest pulling the 'porkie pies' apart. All the woolly facts my Dad told me have so far been useful in my search in some way.

Also remember if he was a deserter he was 'on the run'. Not sure what the penalty was for desertion prior to WW1, say 1890-1900, (during WW1 was most likely firing squad) and whether the desertion would have been ignored/let off if it was 'discovered' later in life - I suspect not!

Janet

Patchem, thank you I do have him in 1911.

Shirley

Thanks for the information, where did you find it please as I would like to print the original out. Sounds daft I know, but I found this ages ago and couldn't remember where I got it from. So where would I look to find original please.

Once again many thanks to all

Phyll

his 1890=1892 record is on Ancestry but cant see a WW1 records. but then many WW1 records haven't survived

Shirley

I meant where did you find the Irish info please.
Thank you.

JannieAnnie

Thanks for your response to my query. My Mum said he was a 'Sergeant Major in WWI and like yours GT Grandfather he was gassed. She said she remembered seeing him off at Brighton Station in uniform. Then I found out that later on he was a ceiling cleaner at the station - was this the uniform she remembered I wonder, she was only 6 or 7 at the time. I wish she had spoken more about him when she was alive but it was like trying to get blood out of a stone. She told me that she herself was born in Ireland - not so. Her Mother's maiden name was South, it wasn't it was Louth and so on..... If it wasn't driving me mad it would be funny. Sorry if I sound mean but have only been out of hospital a couple of days and feeling sore.

Best wishes

Phyll

Phyll

I know the feeling - I wish I had asked my grandmothers and grandfathers more about their families, but now I just have to go with the information I have - and look at it from different angles.

For example, you mention a uniform - it could have been a work uniform - I think there was probably much more pride in working for the railway back in 1914 and also it may have been that a number of railway employees could have gone together - i think they had pals regiments - join up with a friend or friends - or colleagues. Also how many suits of clothes would he have owned? Maybe they were allowed to go in their rail uniforms?

When was he a ceiling cleaner? 1911 shows him a a Farm Labourer but if he was gassed maybe the Railway gave him a job when he came back (after being gassed)?

As to being a Sergeant Major - well I don't know how the military ranks go - but if he was in Ireland, and he told them he had army experience - or if they had initial training and he showed them he knew what he was doing then perhaps he did get a 'rank' !

Sorry you are feeling sore (and sore at not being able to find him in WW1) maybe you could do a search for Sergeant Majors on the 'Buffs' - they probably have a website of their own. What about the Railway - there might be records there? At least this gives us opportunity to use our brains

Janet

Phyll

Also there is this - but it is for a James Frederick West, a Private in the Royal West Surrey Regiment (found on FMP in De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour 1914-1918) but the comment is: Reported missing 31 Oct 1914, and now assumed dead. So not 'the Buffs' and he was a Private.

I wasn't sure from your replies if you knew him or just what your mum told you.

Janet

The irish info is on FMP

Go to the National Archives site and use the WO ref to find him . you can then request an estimate for the download which if you accept they will send copies after receipt of your payment

I have downloaded the record 3 pages cos the 4th is blank. If you want to PM me with your email address will send them

Hi Phyll,
Looks like his papers are on ancestry..... he enlisted in May 1915 in the Army Service Corps in Romsey, Hants age 38yrs,....and deserted again in Nov 1915
Letter sent to his wife Sarah asking of his whereabouts.
She says she had neither seen or heard from him since his enlistment
Edit
Letter to Sarah was dated Dec 1915

Would you like me to save the papers and PM them?
Anne

Thank you all for your input into my query and for the information you have found. I have managed to find the Irish records and downloaded them to my computer - well the first 3 pages as 4th one blank as you said.

Anne I don't think your information is about my Frederick West as the children are wrong. He only had my Mum and her brother (well as far as I know) Mum being born in 1907 and her brother in 1910.

One thing struck me is that on the Irish records dated May 1905 he states he is single but he married my grandmother in February of that year!

I never knew him as he died long before I was born.

Once again my very grateful thanks to you all.

Phyll

Hi Phyll,
Sorry,
The soldier who enlisted in 1915 and deserted, was:
Fred West of 15 Carlton Street, Brighton. age 38yrs and 10months

He was married to Sarah Wace in Brighton 1890 and had 3 children.

Don't be sorry Anne
I am very grateful for any help in this matter. My fred was married to Sarah Louth in Dublin - I have the marriage cert.