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Elaine
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25 Oct 2014 22:29 |
This couple married in Hull register office (Sculcoates) in 1904, according to the 1911 census he was born around 1874 and she around 1883, I cant find any earlier references to these people except perhaps the 1901 census where I think I have found Frederick born in Hull in 1875, they had 10 children and from their marriage onwards I'm ok. But I just cannot seem to find a birth record for either of them or on any other census. Any help would be appreciated. Esther's family may have been Scottish or Irish.
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brummiejan
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25 Oct 2014 22:40 |
I know you have this, just for our reference:
1911 England Census about Fred Hardy Name: Fred Hardy Age in 1911: 36 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Birth Place: Norton, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Sculcoates County/Island: Yorkshire-East Riding Country: England Street address: Sarah Ann Ter Spyve St Hull Marital Status: Married Occupation: Coal Trimmer Registration district: Sculcoates Registration District Number: 521 Sub registration district: Drypool ED, institution, or vessel: 27 Piece: 28684 Household Members: Name Age Fred Hardy 36 Esthen Hardy 28 born Hull James Hardy 7 Frad Hardy 5 Emily Hardy 1 Donald McKinley Birth Place: Leith
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brummiejan
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25 Oct 2014 22:46 |
?
1891 England Census Name: Esther McKinley Age: 4 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887 Relation: Granddaughter Gender: Female Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Sculcoates Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillips Town: Kingston upon Hull County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Street address:
Registration district: Sculcoates Sub registration district: East Sculcoates
Esther Watson 56 born Ireland Donald McKinley 31 born scotland Flora McKinley 23 James McKinley 22 Elizabeth McKinley 21 Archibald McKinley 20 William McKinley 15 Esther McKinley 4
1901 England Census
Name: Esther McKinley Watson Age: 18 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Mother: Esther Watson Birth Place: Hull, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Sculcoates Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England
Registration district: Sculcoates Sub-registration district: West Sculcoates ED, institution, or vessel: 35
Esther Watson 70 Donald McKinley Watson 41 James McKinley Watson 34 Esther McKinley Watson 18
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brummiejan
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25 Oct 2014 22:50 |
1881 England Census about Frederick Hardy Name: Frederick Hardy Age: 6 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875 Relationship to Head: Grandson Father: James Hardy Gender: Male Where born: Norton, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Norton In Doncaster County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Street address: Norton Education:
Employment status: View image Occupation: Scholar Registration district: Doncaster Sub registration district: Campsall ED, institution, or vessel: 10 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 4693 Folio: 122 Page Number: 4 Household Members: Name Age Sarah Hardy 54 James Hardy 30 Frederick Hardy 6 (not transcribed)
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brummiejan
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25 Oct 2014 22:51 |
1891 England Census about Frederick Hardy Name: Frederick Hardy Age: 16 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875 Relation: Servant Gender: Male Where born: Norton, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Cridling Stubbs Ecclesiastical parish: Darrington Town: Cridling Stubbs County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status: View image Registration district: Pontefract Sub registration district: Knottingley ED, institution, or vessel: 15 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 3757 Folio: 82 Page Number: 1 Household Members: Name Age William Mollett 33 Anna Maria Mollett 26 Steeton Mollett 2 Mary Mollett 11/12 Emma Eliz Whittley 19 Helen Lawson 14 Joseph Stacey 19 Frederick Hardy 16 Joseph Hurst 16 Edward O'connor 16
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Andrew
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25 Oct 2014 22:52 |
1891 for Esther? Age a bit out, but right area.
1891 England Census about Esther McKinley
Name:Esther McKinley Age:4 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1887 Relation:Granddaughter Gender:Female Where born:Hull, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish:Sculcoates Ecclesiastical parish:St Phillips Town:Kingston upon Hull County/Island:Yorkshire Country:England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Registration district:Sculcoates Sub registration district:East Sculcoates ED, institution, or vessel:4 Neighbors: View others on page Piece:3926 Folio:61 Page Number:8 Household Members: Name Age
Esther Watson 56 Donald McKinley 31 Flora McKinley 23 James McKinley 22 Elizabeth McKinley 21 Archibald McKinley 20 William McKinley 15 Esther McKinley 4 Andy
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Elaine
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25 Oct 2014 23:35 |
Thank you all so much, this has give me a good reference points to investigae further.
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SylviaInCanada
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26 Oct 2014 01:13 |
they actually married in 1903!
their marriage registration, from freebmd
Marriages Mar 1903 (>99%) Hardy Frederick Sculcoates 9d 284 McKinley Esther Sculcoates 9d 284
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SylviaInCanada
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26 Oct 2014 01:28 |
If you note, Donald McKinley is living with the Hardys on the 1911 ................... in 1901 and 1911, he is noted as married, but there is no sign of a wife.
I wonder if he really is Esther's father?
from a Public Family Tree on ancestry ........ which may or may not be accurate :-)
Donald McKinley Birth abt 1859 in Scotland
Donald McKinley 1837 –
Easther Watson 1839 –
1871 Census
Name: Donald McKinlay Age: 12 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859 Relation: Son Father's Name: Donald McKinlay Mother's name: Easther McKinlay Gender: Male Where born: Scotland Civil Parish: Holy Trinity Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Registration district: Hull Sub-registration district: St Mary ED, institution, or vessel: 7 Household schedule number: 128 Piece: 4788 Folio: 118 Page Number: 22
Donald McKinlay 34 b.ca 1837, Scotland, Labourer Easther McKinlay 32 b.ca 1839, Ireland Donald McKinlay 12 John McKinlay 10 b. Scotland Hannah McKinlay 8 b.ca 1863, Scotland Flora McKinlay 6 b.ca 1865, Hull, Yorkshire James McKinlay 4 b. Hull Mary McKinlay 2 b. Hull Archibald McKinlay 1 Month b. Hull
Address:- No 8 Trippett Street
so it looks as if the family moved from Scotland to Hull between 1863 and 1865
the question could be asked .......... why did mother Esther return to her apparent maiden name of Watson?
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SylviaInCanada
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26 Oct 2014 01:41 |
according to another Public Tree, the father Donald McKinley ......................
Donald McKinley Birth 1837 Inverness, Scotland, Bornaskitag settlement on the Isle of Skye
he apparently died between 1871 and 1881
1881 Census
Name: Wm McKinlay [Esther McKinlay] Age: 43 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838 Relationship to Head: Head Where born: Ireland Civil Parish: Sculcoates County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England Street address: 4 Druids Court Marital Status: Windower (Widower)
Registration district: Sculcoates Sub registration district: East Sculcoates ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Piece: 4758 Folio: 15 Page Number: 23
Wm McKinlay 43 99%)
Coupland Sophia Sculcoates 9d 315 MacKinley Donald Sculcoates 9d 315 MYERS William Sculcoates 9d 315 PARKER Leah Sculcoates 9d 315
William Myers married Sophia Coupland, so Donald married Leah Parker .......... But I can find no further trace of her, and anyway, this marriage is too late for her to be Esther's mother
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SylviaInCanada
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26 Oct 2014 01:42 |
I think you are going to have to buy Esther's birth certificate to see who are her parents.
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Potty
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26 Oct 2014 10:46 |
Donald & Esther in 1861:
1861 Scotland Census Name:Donald Mckinlay Age:28 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1833 Relationship:Head Spouse's name :Easter Mckinlay Gender:Male Where born:Glasgow, Lanarkshire Registration Number:564/2 Registration district:Greenock East Civil Parish:Greenock East County:Renfrewshire Address:1 Cartsburn Street Occupation:Labourer (foundry) Donald Mckinlay 28 Easter Mckinlay 30 Donald Mckinlay 2 - b Greenock John Mckinlay 3 Mo b Greenock
scotlandspeople has only one birth for each of the boys' names. Their birth entries should have the date and place of parents' marriage but I can't find a marriage on there. There is only one McKinlay/Watson marriage coming up and that is for a John but not to an Esther.
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Potty
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26 Oct 2014 10:57 |
Could this be Hannah's baptism - different maiden name for Esther:
Name: Hannah Mckinlay Gender: Female Birth Date: 24 Mar 1863 Birthplace: MIDDLE OR NEW PARISH,GREENOCK,RENFREW,SCOTLAND Father's Name: Donald Mckinlay Mother's Name: Esther Johnston
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Elaine
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26 Oct 2014 13:45 |
Thank you all again for the information, things are beginning to come together, I think that Esther McKinley (nee Johnston) remarried to an Alfred Watson in 1881, however I also find a death for an Alfred Watson in the same year. She appears alone again in 1891 census and she is listed as the grandmother of Esther McKinley (age 4) and Donald Mckinley junior is listed as her father. I can find no marriage for Donald Junior.
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mgnv
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27 Oct 2014 01:35 |
I don't have any sub, so I can't see images, nor full details, but:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQZ2-T84 Hannah b 24/3/1863 d/o Donald McKinlay & Esther Johnston
1861 Registration Number=564 (i.e., Greenock RFW) Name Parent or spouse names Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relation Civil Parish County Donald Mckinlay Easter abt 1833 Glasgow, Lanarkshire Head city Renfrewshire Easter Mckinlay Donald abt 1831 Ireland Wife city Renfrewshire Donald Mckinlay Donald,Easter abt 1859 Greenock, Renfrewshire Son city Renfrewshire John Mckinlay Donald,Easter abt 1861 [a=3m] Greenock, Renfrewshire Son city Renfrewshire
1881 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3FG-2MQ
Births Sep 1865 (>99%) McKINLEY Flora Sculcoates 9d 114
Births Mar 1867 (>99%) McKenley Thomas James Hull 9d 178
Births Mar 1869 (>99%) McKenley Mary Elizabeth Sculcoates 9d 121
Births Jun 1871 (>99%) McKinley Archibald Hull 9d 187
Births Sep 1875 (>99%) McKinley William Sculcoates 9d 174
Marriages Jun 1881 (>99%) McKinley Esther Sculcoates 9d 259 Watson Alfred Sculcoates 9d 259
Births Sep 1882 (>99%) McKinlay Esther Sculcoates 9d 189
Deaths Mar 1883 (>99%) McKINLAY Hannah 19 Sculcoates 9d 134
Using http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk/ to resolve Hull marrs pre-1912: Yorkshire Marriage indexes for the years: Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference 1883q4 MCKINLEY John KEMP Catherine Jessie Hull Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull HRO/26/61 1888q3 MACKINLEY John REDHEAD Maris Sculcoates Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull SRO/36/166 [GRO index has Maria] 1892q3 MCKINLEY Archibald RAMSEY Elizabeth St Marks Hull HMK/5/91 1893q2 MCKINLEY Flora ROBINSON Samuel St Silas Hull WS/1/286 1895q1 MCKINLEY Mary E SUGDEN David St Paul Hull JA/9/120 [GRO index has Mary Elizabeth] 1896q2 MCKINLEY William HUDSON Rose H All Saints, Sculcoates Hull HAS/27/192 [GRO index has Rose Hannah] 1896q3 MACKINLEY Donald PARKER Leah St Paul Hull JA/9/275 1903q1 MCKINLEY Esther HARDY Frederick Sculcoates Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull SRO/62/135 [YorksBMD has 1904 (erroneously)] 1909q4 MCKINLEY Thomas J CLAYTON Mary Sculcoates Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull SRO/76/93 [GRO index has Thomas James]
Births Sep 1893 (>99%) McKinley Esther Sculcoates 9d 122a Deaths Sep 1893 (>99%) McKinley Esther 0 Sculcoates 9d 104
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mgnv
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27 Oct 2014 02:12 |
In Scotland, one has 21d to rego a birth (unlike the 42d in England), and John was 3m old on 7/4/1861, so was probably born in Dec 1860, and quite likely to have been rego'ed in 1860. The importance of this is the content of a b.cert changed 1/1/1861 to include the date & place of the parents' marr - see: http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&628 So it's Hannah's b.cert which should be your first choice. Incidentally, SP normally image the local rego's which are the ones the informant signs for Bs & Ds. I also think the parents' ages in 1861 need checking, so that image is also worth purchasing.
The 1841/1851 census for LKS is completely transcribed at: http://www.freecen.org.uk/ whilst RFW is 91%/78% complete - unfortunately part of Greenock is what's untranscribed (plus part of 1851 Paisley).
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mgnv
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27 Oct 2014 02:43 |
I had a look aat 1911
Schedule type Last names First names Sex Birth year Age in 1911 District / other County / other HOUSEHOLD HARDY FRED M 1875 36 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head HOUSEHOLD HARDY ESTER F 1883 28 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife HOUSEHOLD HARDY JAMES M 1904 7 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD HARDY FRED M 1906 5 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD HARDY EMILY F 1910 1 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY DONALD M 1859 52 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Boarder [RD521 SD6 SCULCOATES (Drypool) PN28658-28687]
Unfortunately, Donald (living with Fred & Esther) is described as Boarder in 1911. He was undoubtedly more than that, but what? I think the 1891 description of Esther as Graddaughter is correct, and that's our Esther with the wrong age. My guess is Esther is Hannah's (illegitimate) kid, but one would need her b.cert (or a baptism) to be sure. So Donald is really her uncle - her aunt is living in Hull
1911 [RD522 SD1 HULL (Humber) PN28750-28769] Schedule type Last names First names Sex Birth year Age in 1911 District / other County / other Transcript Original page HOUSEHOLD BRAIN LAVINIA F 1878 33 Hull Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head HOUSEHOLD BRAIN WILLIAM HENRY M 1909 2 Hull Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD MCKINDLEY LEAH F 1871 40 Hull Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Lodger [Leah has been marr 14y]
I looked at all the 1911 McKinleys in Sculcoates RD - the rest are nearly all our Esther's uncles, aunts or cousins (if I've guessed right).
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY THOMAS J M 1868 43 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY MARY F 1870 41 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON EDWIN M 1895 16 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepson HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON WILLIAM M 1897 14 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepson HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON MARY E F 1899 12 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepdaughter HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON JOSEPH M 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepson HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON MILDRED F 1906 5 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepdaughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY HESTER F 1910 1 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter [RD521 SD6 SCULCOATES (Drypool) PN28658-28687]
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY WILLIAM M 1876 35 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ROSE HANNAH F 1877 34 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY REBECCA F 1897 14 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY WILLIAM HUDSON M 1899 12 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ELIZABETH F 1904 7 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ERNEST M 1908 3 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son [RD521 SD1 SCULCOATES (Southcoates) PN28578-28598]
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ARCHIBALD M 1871 40 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ELIZABETH F 1874 37 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ARCHIBALD M 1895 16 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY WILLIAM RAMSEY M 1897 14 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ELSIE F 1900 11 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ALFRED M 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY PHYLLIS F 1907 4 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY EDWARD M 1910 1 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son [RD521 SD1 SCULCOATES (Southcoates) PN28578-28598]
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY JOHN M 1861 50 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY HANNAH F 1868 43 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY MARIA F 1888 23 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY MARGARAET F 1891 20 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY DONALD M 1895 16 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ESTER F 1897 14 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY SARH E F 1900 11 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY EVA F 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY JOHN M 1905 6 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ALBERT M 1909 2 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son [RD521 SD7 SCULCOATES (East Sculcoates) PN28688-28711]
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY CHARLES HENRY M 1881 30 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY LAURA F 1872 39 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY LAWRENCE GEORGE M 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY DENIS WILLIAM M 1906 5 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son [RD521 SD8 SCULCOATES (West Sculcoates) PN28712-28749]
In 1901, we find in piece rg13/4491 (Registration Sub-District: East Sculcoates): Name Parent or spouse names Birth Year Birth Place Relation to Head Residence View Image Charles H McKinley Laura abt 1881 Ireland info city, Yorkshire
so this last h/h seems unconnected with our mob.
1901 [rg13/4489/96/10 SCULCOATES (East Sculcoates)] Name Parent or spouse names Birth Year Birth Place Relation to Head Residence Sarmsele Robinson Flora abt 1866 city, Yorkshire, England Head city, Yorkshire Flora Robinson Sarmsele abt 1867 city, Yorkshire, England info city, Yorkshire Jenny Robinson abt 1899 city, Lancashire, England info city, Yorkshire
1911 [RG14PN28704 RD521 SD7 ED17 SCULCOATES (East Sculcoates)] HOUSEHOLD ROBINSON SAMUEL M 1862 49 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head HOUSEHOLD ROBINSON JOSEPH M 1899 12 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son [I can't find 1911 Flora]
1911 [RG14PN28696 RD521 SD7 ED9 SN210 SCULCOATES (East Sculcoates)] HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN DAVID M 1869 42 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN MARY ELIZABETH F 1869 42 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN DAVID WILLIAM M 1895 16 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN HANNAH ELIZABETH F 1898 13 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN WALTER ARTHUR M 1901 10 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN ALFRED JAMES M 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN DONALD THOMAS M 1906 5 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN HENRY M 1908 3 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN EARNEST M 1910 5 MONTHS Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
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Potty
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27 Oct 2014 11:43 |
Found this - might come in useful:
Ireland, 1841/1851 Census Abstracts (Northern Ireland) Esther Johnston
Relationship:Daughter Age:18 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1833 Census Location:Antrim Census Year:1851 Household Members:
William Johnston - Head Letty Johnston - Wife Eliza Johnston 30 William Johnston 21 Jaine Johnston 20 Esther Johnston 18 James Johnston 6
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Elaine
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27 Oct 2014 21:33 |
All of this information has been most helpful, so, I now believe that Esther b: 1882 may well have been the illegitimate daughter of Hannah Mckinley B: 1863, Hannah died in 1883, Esther would only be months old, at the 1891 census Esthers age is recorded as 4 and listed as granddaughter, she was actually 8. In the 1901 Census she is 18 and the status changed to daughter so I reckon grandma has brought her up as her own. Esther herself had an illegitimate daughter Hannah Hardy McKinley in 1902.
Frederick's father was James Hardy, mother unknown, James was the illegitimate son of Sarah Hardy B:1827 (can we all see a pattern here!!) all of Norton, West Yorkshire. Sarah was a servant, she also had an illegitimate daughter, Harriet, they all lived with Sarah's parents Henry Hardy and Elizabeth Nettleton. Harriet also had an illegitimate daughter!
I'm still digging for info, but I would not have been able to get this far without the help of this groups members. Many thanks to all.
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