Genealogy Chat

This couple married in Hull register office (Sculcoates) in 1904, according to the 1911 census he was born around 1874 and she around 1883, I cant find any earlier references to these people except perhaps the 1901 census where I think I have found Frederick born in Hull in 1875, they had 10 children and from their marriage onwards I'm ok. But I just cannot seem to find a birth record for either of them or on any other census. Any help would be appreciated. Esther's family may have been Scottish or Irish.

I know you have this, just for our reference:

1911 England Census about Fred Hardy
Name: Fred Hardy
Age in 1911: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Norton, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Sculcoates
County/Island: Yorkshire-East Riding
Country: England
Street address: Sarah Ann Ter Spyve St Hull
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Coal Trimmer
Registration district: Sculcoates
Registration District Number: 521
Sub registration district: Drypool
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Piece: 28684
Household Members:
Name Age
Fred Hardy 36
Esthen Hardy 28 born Hull
James Hardy 7
Frad Hardy 5
Emily Hardy 1
Donald McKinley Birth Place: Leith

?


1891 England Census
Name: Esther McKinley
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Sculcoates
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillips
Town: Kingston upon Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address:

Registration district: Sculcoates
Sub registration district: East Sculcoates

Esther Watson 56 born Ireland
Donald McKinley 31 born scotland
Flora McKinley 23
James McKinley 22
Elizabeth McKinley 21
Archibald McKinley 20
William McKinley 15
Esther McKinley 4


1901 England Census

Name: Esther McKinley Watson
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Mother: Esther Watson
Birth Place: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Sculcoates
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Registration district: Sculcoates
Sub-registration district: West Sculcoates
ED, institution, or vessel: 35

Esther Watson 70
Donald McKinley Watson 41
James McKinley Watson 34
Esther McKinley Watson 18

1881 England Census about Frederick Hardy
Name: Frederick Hardy
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relationship to Head: Grandson
Father: James Hardy
Gender: Male
Where born: Norton, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Norton In Doncaster
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address: Norton
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Doncaster
Sub registration district: Campsall
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4693
Folio: 122
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Hardy 54
James Hardy 30
Frederick Hardy 6
(not transcribed)

1891 England Census about Frederick Hardy
Name: Frederick Hardy
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Norton, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Cridling Stubbs
Ecclesiastical parish: Darrington
Town: Cridling Stubbs
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Pontefract
Sub registration district: Knottingley
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3757
Folio: 82
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
William Mollett 33
Anna Maria Mollett 26
Steeton Mollett 2
Mary Mollett 11/12
Emma Eliz Whittley 19
Helen Lawson 14
Joseph Stacey 19
Frederick Hardy 16
Joseph Hurst 16
Edward O'connor 16

1891 for Esther? Age a bit out, but right area.


1891 England Census
about Esther McKinley


Name:Esther McKinley
Age:4
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1887
Relation:Granddaughter
Gender:Female
Where born:Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish:Sculcoates
Ecclesiastical parish:St Phillips
Town:Kingston upon Hull
County/Island:Yorkshire
Country:England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district:Sculcoates
Sub registration district:East Sculcoates
ED, institution, or vessel:4
Neighbors:
View others on page
Piece:3926
Folio:61
Page Number:8
Household Members:
Name
Age


Esther Watson 56
Donald McKinley 31
Flora McKinley 23
James McKinley 22
Elizabeth McKinley 21
Archibald McKinley 20
William McKinley 15
Esther McKinley 4


Andy

Thank you all so much, this has give me a good reference points to investigae further.

they actually married in 1903!


their marriage registration, from freebmd


Marriages Mar 1903 (>99%)
Hardy Frederick Sculcoates 9d 284
McKinley Esther Sculcoates 9d 284

If you note, Donald McKinley is living with the Hardys on the 1911 ................... in 1901 and 1911, he is noted as married, but there is no sign of a wife.

I wonder if he really is Esther's father?



from a Public Family Tree on ancestry ........ which may or may not be accurate :-)



Donald McKinley
Birth abt 1859 in Scotland


Donald McKinley
1837 –

Easther Watson
1839 –



1871 Census

Name: Donald McKinlay
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Donald McKinlay
Mother's name: Easther McKinlay
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Hull
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 128
Piece: 4788
Folio: 118
Page Number: 22

Donald McKinlay 34 b.ca 1837, Scotland, Labourer
Easther McKinlay 32 b.ca 1839, Ireland
Donald McKinlay 12
John McKinlay 10 b. Scotland
Hannah McKinlay 8 b.ca 1863, Scotland
Flora McKinlay 6 b.ca 1865, Hull, Yorkshire
James McKinlay 4 b. Hull
Mary McKinlay 2 b. Hull
Archibald McKinlay 1 Month b. Hull

Address:- No 8 Trippett Street



so it looks as if the family moved from Scotland to Hull between 1863 and 1865



the question could be asked .......... why did mother Esther return to her apparent maiden name of Watson?

according to another Public Tree, the father Donald McKinley ......................


Donald McKinley
Birth
1837
Inverness, Scotland,
Bornaskitag settlement on the Isle of Skye


he apparently died between 1871 and 1881


1881 Census

Name: Wm McKinlay
[Esther McKinlay]
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relationship to Head: Head
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Sculcoates
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address: 4 Druids Court
Marital Status: Windower (Widower)

Registration district: Sculcoates
Sub registration district: East Sculcoates
ED, institution, or vessel: 8

Piece: 4758
Folio: 15
Page Number: 23

Wm McKinlay 43 99%)

Coupland Sophia Sculcoates 9d 315
MacKinley Donald Sculcoates 9d 315
MYERS William Sculcoates 9d 315
PARKER Leah Sculcoates 9d 315


William Myers married Sophia Coupland, so Donald married Leah Parker .......... But I can find no further trace of her, and anyway, this marriage is too late for her to be Esther's mother

I think you are going to have to buy Esther's birth certificate to see who are her parents.

Donald & Esther in 1861:


1861 Scotland Census
Name:Donald Mckinlay
Age:28
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1833
Relationship:Head
Spouse's name :Easter Mckinlay
Gender:Male
Where born:Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Registration Number:564/2
Registration district:Greenock East
Civil Parish:Greenock East
County:Renfrewshire
Address:1 Cartsburn Street
Occupation:Labourer (foundry)

Donald Mckinlay 28
Easter Mckinlay 30
Donald Mckinlay 2 - b Greenock
John Mckinlay 3 Mo b Greenock

scotlandspeople has only one birth for each of the boys' names. Their birth entries should have the date and place of parents' marriage but I can't find a marriage on there. There is only one McKinlay/Watson marriage coming up and that is for a John but not to an Esther.

Could this be Hannah's baptism - different maiden name for Esther:

Name: Hannah Mckinlay
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 24 Mar 1863
Birthplace: MIDDLE OR NEW PARISH,GREENOCK,RENFREW,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: Donald Mckinlay
Mother's Name: Esther Johnston

Thank you all again for the information, things are beginning to come together, I think that Esther McKinley (nee Johnston) remarried to an Alfred Watson in 1881, however I also find a death for an Alfred Watson in the same year. She appears alone again in 1891 census and she is listed as the grandmother of Esther McKinley (age 4) and Donald Mckinley junior is listed as her father. I can find no marriage for Donald Junior.

I don't have any sub, so I can't see images, nor full details, but:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQZ2-T84
Hannah b 24/3/1863 d/o Donald McKinlay & Esther Johnston

1861 Registration Number=564 (i.e., Greenock RFW)
Name Parent or spouse names Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relation Civil Parish County
Donald Mckinlay Easter abt 1833 Glasgow, Lanarkshire Head city Renfrewshire
Easter Mckinlay Donald abt 1831 Ireland Wife city Renfrewshire
Donald Mckinlay Donald,Easter abt 1859 Greenock, Renfrewshire Son city Renfrewshire
John Mckinlay Donald,Easter abt 1861 [a=3m] Greenock, Renfrewshire Son city Renfrewshire

1881 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3FG-2MQ

Births Sep 1865 (>99%)
McKINLEY Flora Sculcoates 9d 114

Births Mar 1867 (>99%)
McKenley Thomas James Hull 9d 178

Births Mar 1869 (>99%)
McKenley Mary Elizabeth Sculcoates 9d 121

Births Jun 1871 (>99%)
McKinley Archibald Hull 9d 187

Births Sep 1875 (>99%)
McKinley William Sculcoates 9d 174

Marriages Jun 1881 (>99%)
McKinley Esther Sculcoates 9d 259
Watson Alfred Sculcoates 9d 259



Births Sep 1882 (>99%)
McKinlay Esther Sculcoates 9d 189

Deaths Mar 1883 (>99%)
McKINLAY Hannah 19 Sculcoates 9d 134

Using http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk/ to resolve Hull marrs pre-1912:
Yorkshire Marriage indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
1883q4 MCKINLEY John KEMP Catherine Jessie Hull Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull HRO/26/61
1888q3 MACKINLEY John REDHEAD Maris Sculcoates Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull SRO/36/166 [GRO index has Maria]
1892q3 MCKINLEY Archibald RAMSEY Elizabeth St Marks Hull HMK/5/91
1893q2 MCKINLEY Flora ROBINSON Samuel St Silas Hull WS/1/286
1895q1 MCKINLEY Mary E SUGDEN David St Paul Hull JA/9/120 [GRO index has Mary Elizabeth]
1896q2 MCKINLEY William HUDSON Rose H All Saints, Sculcoates Hull HAS/27/192 [GRO index has Rose Hannah]
1896q3 MACKINLEY Donald PARKER Leah St Paul Hull JA/9/275
1903q1 MCKINLEY Esther HARDY Frederick Sculcoates Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull SRO/62/135 [YorksBMD has 1904 (erroneously)]
1909q4 MCKINLEY Thomas J CLAYTON Mary Sculcoates Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull SRO/76/93 [GRO index has Thomas James]

Births Sep 1893 (>99%)
McKinley Esther Sculcoates 9d 122a
Deaths Sep 1893 (>99%)
McKinley Esther 0 Sculcoates 9d 104

In Scotland, one has 21d to rego a birth (unlike the 42d in England), and John was 3m old on 7/4/1861, so was probably born in Dec 1860, and quite likely to have been rego'ed in 1860. The importance of this is the content of a b.cert changed 1/1/1861 to include the date & place of the parents' marr - see:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&628
So it's Hannah's b.cert which should be your first choice. Incidentally, SP normally image the local rego's which are the ones the informant signs for Bs & Ds. I also think the parents' ages in 1861 need checking, so that image is also worth purchasing.

The 1841/1851 census for LKS is completely transcribed at:
http://www.freecen.org.uk/
whilst RFW is 91%/78% complete - unfortunately part of Greenock is what's untranscribed (plus part of 1851 Paisley).

I had a look aat 1911

Schedule type Last names First names Sex Birth year Age in 1911 District / other County / other
HOUSEHOLD HARDY FRED M 1875 36 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head
HOUSEHOLD HARDY ESTER F 1883 28 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife
HOUSEHOLD HARDY JAMES M 1904 7 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD HARDY FRED M 1906 5 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD HARDY EMILY F 1910 1 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY DONALD M 1859 52 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Boarder
[RD521 SD6 SCULCOATES (Drypool) PN28658-28687]

Unfortunately, Donald (living with Fred & Esther) is described as Boarder in 1911.
He was undoubtedly more than that, but what?
I think the 1891 description of Esther as Graddaughter is correct, and that's our Esther with the wrong age.
My guess is Esther is Hannah's (illegitimate) kid, but one would need her b.cert (or a baptism) to be sure.
So Donald is really her uncle - her aunt is living in Hull

1911 [RD522 SD1 HULL (Humber) PN28750-28769]
Schedule type Last names First names Sex Birth year Age in 1911 District / other County / other Transcript Original page
HOUSEHOLD BRAIN LAVINIA F 1878 33 Hull Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head
HOUSEHOLD BRAIN WILLIAM HENRY M 1909 2 Hull Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD MCKINDLEY LEAH F 1871 40 Hull Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Lodger
[Leah has been marr 14y]

I looked at all the 1911 McKinleys in Sculcoates RD - the rest are nearly all our Esther's uncles, aunts or cousins (if I've guessed right).

HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY THOMAS J M 1868 43 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY MARY F 1870 41 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife
HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON EDWIN M 1895 16 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepson
HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON WILLIAM M 1897 14 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepson
HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON MARY E F 1899 12 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepdaughter
HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON JOSEPH M 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepson
HOUSEHOLD CLAYTON MILDRED F 1906 5 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Stepdaughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY HESTER F 1910 1 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
[RD521 SD6 SCULCOATES (Drypool) PN28658-28687]

HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY WILLIAM M 1876 35 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ROSE HANNAH F 1877 34 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY REBECCA F 1897 14 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY WILLIAM HUDSON M 1899 12 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ELIZABETH F 1904 7 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ERNEST M 1908 3 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
[RD521 SD1 SCULCOATES (Southcoates) PN28578-28598]

HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ARCHIBALD M 1871 40 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ELIZABETH F 1874 37 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ARCHIBALD M 1895 16 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY WILLIAM RAMSEY M 1897 14 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ELSIE F 1900 11 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ALFRED M 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY PHYLLIS F 1907 4 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY EDWARD M 1910 1 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
[RD521 SD1 SCULCOATES (Southcoates) PN28578-28598]

HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY JOHN M 1861 50 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY HANNAH F 1868 43 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY MARIA F 1888 23 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY MARGARAET F 1891 20 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY DONALD M 1895 16 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ESTER F 1897 14 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY SARH E F 1900 11 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY EVA F 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY JOHN M 1905 6 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY ALBERT M 1909 2 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
[RD521 SD7 SCULCOATES (East Sculcoates) PN28688-28711]

HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY CHARLES HENRY M 1881 30 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY LAURA F 1872 39 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY LAWRENCE GEORGE M 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD MCKINLEY DENIS WILLIAM M 1906 5 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
[RD521 SD8 SCULCOATES (West Sculcoates) PN28712-28749]

In 1901, we find in piece rg13/4491 (Registration Sub-District: East Sculcoates):
Name Parent or spouse names Birth Year Birth Place Relation to Head Residence View Image
Charles H McKinley Laura abt 1881 Ireland info city, Yorkshire

so this last h/h seems unconnected with our mob.

1901 [rg13/4489/96/10 SCULCOATES (East Sculcoates)]
Name Parent or spouse names Birth Year Birth Place Relation to Head Residence
Sarmsele Robinson Flora abt 1866 city, Yorkshire, England Head city, Yorkshire
Flora Robinson Sarmsele abt 1867 city, Yorkshire, England info city, Yorkshire
Jenny Robinson abt 1899 city, Lancashire, England info city, Yorkshire

1911 [RG14PN28704 RD521 SD7 ED17 SCULCOATES (East Sculcoates)]
HOUSEHOLD ROBINSON SAMUEL M 1862 49 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head
HOUSEHOLD ROBINSON JOSEPH M 1899 12 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
[I can't find 1911 Flora]

1911 [RG14PN28696 RD521 SD7 ED9 SN210 SCULCOATES (East Sculcoates)]
HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN DAVID M 1869 42 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Head
HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN MARY ELIZABETH F 1869 42 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Wife
HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN DAVID WILLIAM M 1895 16 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN HANNAH ELIZABETH F 1898 13 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Daughter
HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN WALTER ARTHUR M 1901 10 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN ALFRED JAMES M 1903 8 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN DONALD THOMAS M 1906 5 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN HENRY M 1908 3 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son
HOUSEHOLD SUGDEN EARNEST M 1910 5 MONTHS Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York) Son

Found this - might come in useful:

Ireland, 1841/1851 Census Abstracts (Northern Ireland)
Esther Johnston

Relationship:Daughter
Age:18
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1833
Census Location:Antrim
Census Year:1851
Household Members:

William Johnston - Head
Letty Johnston - Wife
Eliza Johnston 30
William Johnston 21
Jaine Johnston 20
Esther Johnston 18
James Johnston 6

All of this information has been most helpful, so, I now believe that Esther b: 1882 may well have been the illegitimate daughter of Hannah Mckinley B: 1863, Hannah died in 1883, Esther would only be months old, at the 1891 census Esthers age is recorded as 4 and listed as granddaughter, she was actually 8. In the 1901 Census she is 18 and the status changed to daughter so I reckon grandma has brought her up as her own. Esther herself had an illegitimate daughter Hannah Hardy McKinley in 1902.

Frederick's father was James Hardy, mother unknown, James was the illegitimate son of Sarah Hardy B:1827 (can we all see a pattern here!!) all of Norton, West Yorkshire. Sarah was a servant, she also had an illegitimate daughter, Harriet, they all lived with Sarah's parents Henry Hardy and Elizabeth Nettleton. Harriet also had an illegitimate daughter!

I'm still digging for info, but I would not have been able to get this far without the help of this groups members. Many thanks to all.