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Albert
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4 Feb 2015 16:38 |
WILFRED OXLEY,my grandfather was born on 23rd September 1874
His parents were THOMAS OXLEY & ADA OXLEY(fomerly Carter) shown on birth certificate & resident at 37 Hillside, Chesterfield 1881 Census indicates family now living at 42 Newland Dale, Chesterfield but appear to have changed family name to CARTER (Ada's maiden name), the famiily being :- Thomas Carter, Head (married) aged 34 Ada Carter, Wife (married) aged 28 Wilfred Carter Son aged 6 Sarah Carter Dau. aged 1
1892 James Carter was born 1885 Ada Carter died 1887 Thomas Carter married Mary Ann Hewitt on 28th February 1887 but using his his real surname of Oxley, the marriage certificate confirming this. At this tiime they were living at Higher Albert Street, Chesterfield 1888 Fanny Victoria Carter was born
1891 Census shows family now at 67 Sheffield Road, Chesterfield, the family being Thomas Carter, Head aged 39 Mary Ann Carter, Wife aged 28 Wilfred Carter, son aged 16 Sarah Carter, dau., aged 11 james A Carter, son aged 9 Frederick Hewitt, step son aged 5 Fanny V Carter, aged 2
1895 Mary Ann Carter died 1899 Thomas Carter/Oxley died 1900 WILFRED OXLEY (now with his birth surname confirmed) married Sarah Minnie Snell on April 2nd 1900
1901 Census indicates Wilfred & Sarah living at 15 Porter Street, Staveley Nr. Chesterfield the family being :- Wilfred Oxley,Head, aged 26 Sarah Minnie Oxley, wife aged 23 Minnie Oxley, dau., aged 0
The mystery is "Why did Thomas change family name from OXLEY (his birth name} to CARTER (his wife's maiden name) ?) & the big question is " Were they ever married ?" I cannot find any evidence of this in marriage records.
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Jacqueline
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4 Feb 2015 17:57 |
If they didn't marry, she wasn't his wife.
He may have changed to her name for monetary gain
BTW, I think you've got the wrong year for the birth of James Carter
How did Thomas describe himself when he married Hewitt? Was he supposedly a widower?
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AnnCardiff
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4 Feb 2015 20:50 |
Name: Wilfred Oxley Event Type: Birth Registration Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec Registration Year: 1874 Registration District: Chesterfield County: Derbyshire Event Place: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England Volume: 7B Page: 609 Line Number: 305
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AnnCardiff
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4 Feb 2015 20:50 |
Name: Wilfred Oxley Event Type: Marriage Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun Registration Year: 1900 Registration District: Chesterfield County: Derbyshire Event Place: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England Volume: 7B Page: 1457 Line Number: 349
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AnnCardiff
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4 Feb 2015 20:53 |
strange?
Name: Sarah Minnie Snell Event Type: Marriage Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun Registration Year: 1900 Registration District: Chesterfield County: Derbyshire Event Place: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England Volume: 7B Page: 1437 Line Number: 64
Sarah Minnie Snell probably married one of the following people
Name: Alfred Harvey Name: William Thurlby
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AnnCardiff
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4 Feb 2015 20:57 |
Name: Thomas Oxley Birth Date: 1851 Age: 36 Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Hewitt Spouse's Birth Date: 1864 Spouse's Age: 23 Event Date: 28 Feb 1887 Event Place: Parish Of Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England Father's Name: Thomas Oxley Spouse's Father's Name: William Buxton Marital Status: Widowed Spouse's Marital Status: Widowed
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M01052-5 , System Origin: England-EASy , GS Film number: 1752146 , Reference ID: it 4 p 133
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Jacqueline
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4 Feb 2015 22:05 |
I don't know where the info above was found
Using freebmd...........
Marriages Jun 1900 (>99%)
Oxley Wilfred Chesterfield 7b 1457 Snell Sarah Minnie Chesterfield 7b 1457
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AnnCardiff
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4 Feb 2015 22:26 |
everything I posted from www.familysearch.org
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JoonieCloonie
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4 Feb 2015 23:45 |
re the Sarah Minnie Snell error: note the page number Page: 1437 which should be 1457 ... the correct marriage details are at familysearch here: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNZ1-YFT
the family in 1881
Thomas Carter, Head 34 born Barnsley Yorkshire, iron fitter? and ? Ada Carter, Wife 28 born Nottingham Notts Wilfred Carter Son 6 born Chesterfield Derbyshire Sarah Carter Dau. 1 born " "
there is a significant gap between Wilfred and Sarah ... one possibility is that Thomas was in the military (and possibly Wilfred was born after he left for a posting abroad)
if he then deserted from the military, which was not uncommon, he might have changed his name, also not uncommon
one possibility is India ... the Afghan war started in 1878 and was a source of desertions ...
Ada in 1871 for info
Name: Ada Carter Age: 19 Estimated birth year: abt 1852 Relation: Servant Gender: Female Where born: Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England Civil Parish: Wakefield Ecclesiastical parish: St MaryTown: Wakefield County/Island: Yorkshire Registration district: Wakefield
and actually, it looks like Thomas was already married in 1871
Name: Thomas Oxley Age: 25 Estimated birth year: abt 1846 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Oxley Gender: Male Where born: Barnsley, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Leeds Town: Leeds County/Island: Yorkshire Country: EnglandRegistration district: Leeds
Thomas Oxley 25 labourer at foundry Mary Ann Oxley 21 born Wedgbury, Staffordshire Thomas Oxley 2 Joseph Oxley 5 Months
although his birth details still don't match with anything in the index
so that would explain not marrying and also not using his own name perhaps
looks like the other family in 1881
Name: Thomas Oxley Age: 12 Estimated birth year: abt 1869 Relationship to Head: Son Mother: Mary A. Oxley Gender: Male Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Leeds County/Island: Yorkshire Street address: 36 Marlborough St Registration district: Leeds
Mary A. Oxley 33 head, married, born Golden Hill, Staffordshire Thomas Oxley 12 Herbert Oxley 8 born Leeds
Births Jun 1873 Oxley Herbert Leeds 9b 527
Births Dec 1874 Oxley Wilfred Chesterfield 7b 609
since Wilfred's birth cert names Thomas as father, either there was an estrangement between the two births, or Herbert was Mary Ann's child after she separated from Wilfred
(edit ... deleted obviously incorrect 1857 marriage!)
in any case it looks like you have a whole new set of family members :-)
someone here has
Thomas Oxley 1869 Leeds West Yorkshire
in their family tree (that is, the child of the first marriage)
and that person and another also have
Thomas Oxley 1845 Barnsley South Yorkshire
Births Dec 1845 Oxley Thomas Ecclesfield 22 139
seems to be your Thomas
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Cynthia
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5 Feb 2015 13:37 |
Hello Albert and welcome to the Community boards.
(I'll let Albert know how to find his replies) :-)
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Mary
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5 Feb 2015 15:10 |
1891 census has Sarah Jane Watson born @ 1839 Barnsley.
Sarah Jane Oxley @ 1837 married 25/6/1866 to George Watson in Burley near Leeds.her dad was Thomas Oxley a brick maker. Witnessed by Thomas and Mary Ann Oxley.
Your Thomas was the brother of Sarah Jane Oxley, so this more or less confirms your Thomas was the one who married in Leeds.Maybe that is the reason for the name change.
Maryb.
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JoonieCloonie
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5 Feb 2015 16:16 |
Yup, that was my suggestion for the name change - avoiding fallout from the first marriage if he had deserted that family!
1841
Name: Sarah Oxley Age: 4 Estimated birth year: abt 1837 Gender: Female Where born: Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Barnsley Hundred: Staincross County/Island: Yorkshire View imageRegistration district: Ecclesfield
Thomas Oxley 40 ag lab Sarah Oxley 30 William Oxley 13 Henry Oxley 12 James Oxley 10 Ann Oxley 6 Sarah Oxley 4 Ellen Oxley 2 Margaret Oxley 10week
1851 in Worsbrough
Sarah Oxley 43 Sarah Jane Oxley 12 Ellen Oxley 9 Margaret Oxley 7 Thos Oxley 5 Joseph Moss 23
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AnnCardiff
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7 Feb 2015 17:03 |
message from poster
Thank you for confirming all the details listed relating to the all that has happened within the Oxley/ Carter household up to and including the marriage of Wilfred Oxley and Sarah Minnie Snell.
My concern is now related to the possibility that Thomas Oxley and Ada Carter were never married and I am anxious to know more about Thomas Oxley's ancestors. I have worked hard trying to establish which family he belongs to. There are so many families named Oxley within the Barnsley area having both father & son named Thomas who fit within the age ranges dictated by the Census returns. Am I possibly missing the point somewhere and are there other directions in which I should be going? Any help would be much appreciated!
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JoonieCloonie
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7 Feb 2015 17:54 |
Albert, would you please reply in the thread here?
type your message in the box at the bottom where it says 'Add your reply' ... the box is next to the word 'Post'
(I am realizing that people with vision problems like mine may find it difficult even to see this reply box!)
perhaps you read the information I posted above?
I think there is little question about which family your Thomas belongs to
1841 in Barnsley
Thomas Oxley 40 ag lab Sarah Oxley 30 William Oxley 13 Henry Oxley 12 James Oxley 10 Ann Oxley 6 Sarah Oxley 4 Ellen Oxley 2 Margaret Oxley 10week
1851 in Worsbrough
Sarah Oxley 43 >> Sarah Jane Oxley 12 Ellen Oxley 9 Margaret Oxley 7 >> Thos Oxley 5 >> your Thomas Joseph Moss 23
Thomas was already married when he partnered with Ada Carter, which explains the fact that there is no marriage to Ada Carter, and probably explains his adopting her surname.
I have deleted the possible marriage I posted earlier, because I seem to have lost my mind and thought that someone born in 1845 married in 1857. If Thomas *was* married to his first wife, I do not see a perfect choice for the marriage ... Mary Ann would have been underage so perhaps they did not marry
1871 in Leeds with first wife Mary Ann
Thomas Oxley 25 born Barnsley, labourer at foundry Mary Ann Oxley 21 born Wedgbury, Staffordshire Thomas Oxley 2 Joseph Oxley 5 Months
then in 1881, Thomas is with his new family with Ada
Thomas Carter, Head 34 born Barnsley Yorkshire, iron fitter? and ? Ada Carter, Wife 28 born Nottingham Notts Wilfred Carter Son 6 born Chesterfield Derbyshire Sarah Carter Dau. 1 born " "
and this is his first wife (or not) Mary Ann in 1881 in Leeds
Mary A. Oxley 33 head, married, born Golden Hill, Staffordshire Thomas Oxley 12 Herbert Oxley 8 born Leeds
and in 1891 in Leeds
Mary A Oxley 42, born Leeds (as a ditto), head, scribbler filler, widowed Tom Oxley 22, born Leeds, iron turner, single - son Herbert is married and someone has corrected his name from Oxfey to Oxley at Ancestry but without giving an explanation, and could be contacted there
without a marriage certificate in either case to show a father's name, certainty is difficult
but the Thomas - in 1851 and 1861 with parents Thomas and Sarah and sister Sarah Jane - in 1871 with wife Mary Ann matches your Thomas in 1881 too perfectly
If you get the birth certificate for the first child with Mary Ann
Births Jun 1869 Oxley Thomas Leeds 9b 465
it may give information that will be useful for making the connection
and get this birth certificate for your Thomas
Births Dec 1845 Oxley Thomas Ecclesfield 22 139
and, as I said, contact people who have these people in their trees at this website
Thomas Oxley 1869 Leeds West Yorkshire Thomas Oxley 1845 Barnsley South Yorkshire
Does that help to follow it now?
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SylviaInCanada
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8 Feb 2015 00:39 |
JoonieC posted ...............
and in 1891 in Leeds
Mary A Oxley 42, born Leeds (as a ditto), head, scribbler filler, widowed Tom Oxley 22, born Leeds, iron turner, single - son Herbert is married and someone has corrected his name from Oxfey to Oxley at Ancestry but without giving an explanation, and could be contacted there
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looking at the image of the 1891 Census on ancestry .................. it does indeed look as if the surname is Oxfey but that it was then corrected to OxLey ................
and this is the explanation given ..............
Herbert Oxley rather than Herbert Oxfey
Correction due to an error in transcription.
Submitted by: judithstrachan1 on 14/12/2013
This is further confirmed by looking for Herbert's marriage to an Eva .............
Marriages Mar 1891 (>99%)
Oxley Herbert Leeds 9b 780 Senior Eva Leeds 9b 780
By 1901, Herbert and Eva had 2 children ............
Name Age Herbert Oxley 28 Eva Oxley 27 Mary Ann Oxley 8 Thomas William 4
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JoonieCloonie
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8 Feb 2015 01:20 |
yes that's what I said Sylvia :-D
'someone has corrected his name from Oxfey to Oxley at Ancestry but without giving an explanation, and could be contacted there'
... Oxfey is not a name :-)
(I don't like to post people's usernames here especially when they seem to be their real names, just another instance of talking about somebody who isn't present)
the person who has
Thomas Oxley 1845 Barnsley South Yorkshire
in their tree here at Genes Reunited also has
Herbert Oxley 1872 Holbeck, Leeds
I have messaged Albert asking him to return, and am rather hoping the thread doesn't get longer before he does, so he can find and follow the outline I have given :-)
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SylviaInCanada
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8 Feb 2015 03:43 |
ah
I misunderstood .......... you said "without an explanation"
but the explanation is there ............"mistranscription" :-)
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JoonieCloonie
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10 Feb 2015 18:21 |
(I meant a real explanation! i.e. whether the person who made the correction is actually related to the household. :-) )
Albert ... you are reading the messages here, so you have got to reply here and not by private message
(you replied to the private message I sent you, but that message was just to ask you to come back here and reply here)
For info in reply to the questions in your private message
- this entire 'conversation' is a 'thread' - it consists of one 'post' (message) after another, forming a thread
- each message in the thread is a 'post'
you add your own post (message) here by tying in the box at the bottom of the thread where it says in big letters >>> Add your reply and then, beside the box >>> Post
and then you click the box where it says >>> Add to My Watched Threads (that means you will get an email when someone adds a post)
and then you click the button that says >>> Submit
now I'll get to what you said in your private message to me
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JoonieCloonie
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10 Feb 2015 18:39 |
private message sent by Albert
______________________________________________
I have your message dated 8 Feb 2015 ...
Census 1841 in Barnsley Thomas Oxley 40 ag lab Sarah Oxley30 and their 7 children especially Sarah(Jane?)
Census 1851 in Worsbrough Sarah Oxley 43 (Widow) - I believe Thomas died in 3 - 1841 Sarah Jane Oxley 12 Ellen Oxley 9 Margaret Oxley 7 Thomas Oxley 5 (my Thomas) Joseph Moss 23 (Lodger)
Census 1861 in Barnsley Sarah Oxley 50 Sarah Jane Oxley 23 Margaret Oxley 20 Thomas Oxley 15 (my Thomas) Sarah Ann 8 mnth
Census 1881 in Chesterfield Thomas Carter 34 (my Thomas - believe it or not) Ada Carter 28 (died 1885) Wilfred Carter 6 (my grandfather - Birth certificate 77.11.3 names father as Thomas Oxley) Sarah Carter 1
Census 1891 in Chesterfield Thomas Carter 39 Mary Ann Carter 28 (nee Hewitt - Thomas's 2nd wife) Wilfred Carter 16 Sarah Carter 11 James A Carter 9 Frederick Hewitt 5 (Step son) Fanny v Carter 2 Sarah Jane Watson 52 (Visitor) See following Note>>>>>>>>>
______________________________________________
Yes, Albert, but ...
you have completely skipped over the information I posted about Thomas in 1871 in Leeds with his wife Mary Ann and children Thomas and Joseph!
and then Mary Ann with children Thomas and Herbert in Leeds in 1881 (where she says she is married) and in 1891 (where she says she is widowed)
My idea is that Thomas's first wife (or partner) was Mary Ann, and he left that family ... or Mary Ann left him ... and then he partnered with Ada (and then, when she died, with a new Mary Ann)
if he was married to the first Mary Ann (1871 census) that would be a reason why he did not marry Ada, and possibly why he took her surname, to conceal his identity / his status
______________________________________________
Albert added this note:
Am I to understand that Sarah Jane Oxley born in Barnsley1839 , married George Watson in Burley near Leeds in 1866, the marriage being witnessed by Thomas and Mary Ann Oxley. A copy of the marriage certificate would confirm this. In turn this would go a long way in confirming that my Thomas was the brother of Sarah Jane Oxley.
Can we be sure that there is now a link between the aforementioned families an therefore another branch to the family tree?. I've got a feeling that some further research may be necessary.
Finally I would just like to thank all my new GR advisors and can i say friends for all their valuable help during the last ten days(it feels more like ten weeks) - maybe further help my be required and I hope forthcoming.
Best regards and Au Revoir
Albert (Bert)
______________________________________________
as I understand it, Thomas witnessed Sarah Jane's marriage ... Mary posted this and maybe she would say where it comes from ...
Sarah Jane Oxley @ 1837 married 25/6/1866 to George Watson in Burley near Leeds.her dad was Thomas Oxley a brick maker. Witnessed by Thomas and Mary Ann Oxley.
you note that in the early censuses I posted for your Thomas, there is a sister Sarah Jane, which matches that information
BTW (haha, now you know what that means!) ...
>>> note that the other witness is Mary Ann Oxley
this matches with what I found ... Thomas's first marriage where he is in Leeds with wife Mary Ann in 1871
so it looks like he and his first wife witnessed his sister Sarah Jane's marriage
what I wish we could find is a marriage for Thomas to Mary Ann (the first) before about 1866 ... but she was very young so perhaps they did not marry
but if you got the birth certificate for one of his children (not Herbert to start with because he might not be Thomas's son)
Births Jun 1869 Oxley Thomas Leeds 9b 465
it should give you her name and give you information about Thomas that could help confirm this was your Thomas
does that help? :-)
and also ... look back at the information I posted about people who have Oxleys in their family tries who are from what seems to be Thomas's first family, and use the Search Trees function to try to contact them
I know you are having trouble working out how the site works, but you have got to do it eventually!
To search trees, click on >>> Search up at the top (with the little magnifying glass beside it) and then click on >>> Search All Member Trees
To find this thread, click on Community up at the top and then click on >>> My Threads
and when you finish reading this page, click at the bottom of the messages on >>> 2 to read the second page!
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SylviaInCanada
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10 Feb 2015 19:56 |
?????????????????
could this be the first marriage???????????
The Parish is shown as "Parish of Burley nr Leeds"
West Yorkshire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1935
Name: Thomas Oxley Birth Year: abt 1845 Age: 21 Marriage or Bann Date: 23 Dec 1866 Parish: Burley, St Matthias Father's name: Thomas Oxley Spouse's Name: Mary Anne Collins Spouse's Father's Name: William Collins
from image:-
Thomas Labourer Bachelor Address:- Burley Father Occupation:- Brick-maker
Mary Anne Spinster no occupation shown Address:- Burley Father occupation:- Pedler
Witnesses:- George Watson and William Oxley
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