Genealogy Chat

Is it possible that a family did not baptise their children in this period ?

I had thought it was a pre-requirement to being able to claim poor relief if needed at some future point?

On the 1841 Census for Church Street, Warrington there is a Joseph Massey aged 45 (born Knutsford 1796) a shoemaker, and three of his children, There is another child with her grandparents at Mere. He appears to be a widower.
They are ;
William born 1824
Mary born 1828
Martha born 1833
Hannah born 1832 (Living at at Mere on 1841 census).
They all say born Latchford on subsequent census, but are not on St Wilfrid's or St Elphins registers. I have not found them on any other on line site.

I am wondering if the coverage for Non conformists registers in this area and this period are all documented on line?

Or are there gaps in the registers, and also is it likely that none of the children were actually baptised?

thank you.

Could William have been born a little earlier than 1824 do you think?

There is this baptism in Knutsford where the father's name is Joseph:-

First name(s) William Cash
Last name Massey
Gender Male
Birth year 1822
Baptism year 1822
Baptism date 12 May 1822
Place Knutsford, St John the Baptist
County Cheshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) Joseph
Father's last name Massey
Mother's first name(s) Esther

Kath. x

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1357617

(above relates)

Chris :)

(am sure there was another recently also, mentioning Non Conformist Records, think I posted on it!)

edits (was 1822 Marriage. Massey/Taylor, Grappenhall on below. wits. were Thomas Taylor, Sarah Taylor)

Diocese of Chester Bishop's Transcripts of Marriages c1600-1910 Transcription (Find my Past)

This looks like the marriage of the parents for the William posted above:-

First name(s) JOSEPH
Last name MASSEY
Birth year -
Marriage date 02 Oct 1820
Marriage year 1820
Church -
Place GREAT BUDWORTH
Spouse's first name(s) ESTHER
Spouse's last name CASH
Bride's age -
Bride's birth place -
Bride's residence Great Budworth
Groom's residence Great Budworth
City or town Great Budworth
County Cheshire
Country England

Kath. x

I believe Joseph Massey married Hannah Taylor at Grappenhall, 25 November 1822. William the son being born 2 years later.

On the 1851 census Joseph Massey is a lodger with James Taylor, who married Josephs daughter Mary Massey, I presume his nephew or some relative of his deceased wife Hannah Taylor.

All this implies that they stayed in the same area, unless....they purposefully went out of the area, for baptisms, weddings and burials.

Although there are a couple of burials for a Joseph Massey at St Elphin's, in the period 1851-1861. but no further details given to help identify.

I just wondered if I was missing a possible set of records? Or if they just didn't bother with baptismals...


thank you

Martha's marriage??


Martha Massey
England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts
Name Henry Cooper
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 19 Nov 1851
Event Place Nether, Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Gender Male
Marital Status Single
Father's Name John Cooper
Spouse's Name Martha Massey
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Spouse's Father's Name Joseph Massey

or


Martha Massey
England, Cheshire Parish Registers
Name William Lingby
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 24 Apr 1859
Event Place , Grappenhall, Cheshire, England
Gender Male
Age (Formatted) 27y
Father's Name Reuben Lingby
Spouse's Name Martha Massey
Spouse's Father's Name Jseph Massey

Joseph Massey
England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts
Name Joseph Massey
Event Type Christening
Event Date 22 May 1796
Event Place Knutsford, Cheshire, England
Gender Male
Father's Name Wm
Mother's Name Hannah

Joseph Massey
mentioned in the record of Joseph Massey and Hannah Taylor
Name Joseph Massey
Spouse's Name Hannah Taylor
Event Date 1822
Event Place Grappenhall, Cheshire, England

says on the 1851 that martha is josephs wife could be a mistake as she is the same age as joseph's daughter martha

England and Wales Census, 1851
Name Martha Massey
Event Type Census
Event Date 1851
Event Place Warrington, Lancashire, England
Registration District Warrington
Residence Note Hopwood Street
Gender Female
Age 18
Marital Status Married
Occupation Book Binder
Relationship to Head of Household Lodger Wife
Birth Year (Estimated) 1833
Birthplace Latchford, Cheshire
Page Number 45
Registration Number HO107
Piece/Folio 2203 / 351
Affiliate Record Type Household
HOUSEHOLD

ROLE

GENDER

AGE

BIRTHPLACE

James Taylor Head M 26 Warrington, Lancashire
Mary Taylor Wife F 23 Latchford, Cheshire
Hannah Taylor Daughter F 1 Warrington, Lancashire
Joseph Massey Lodger M 35 Knutsford, Cheshire
Martha Massey Lodger Wife F 18 Latchford, Cheshire
Jane Massey Sister F 19 Latchford, Cheshire

Yes the entry for ,1851 is wrong, or the transcription is . it's a matter of reading through a thick black line. So that makes him 55 not 35 as deduced by the transcriber.

I don't know who Jane is possibley a sister of James Taylor , not a Massey.
Joseph is the eldest son of williuamband Hannah Massey cordwainer of Knutsford .

Joseph's mother secondly married a Samuel Cox a coach man at Mere hall also where Joseph's daughter Hannah is located in 1841 aged 10.and 20. She gives birth to a son at Hopwood street so a definite link there.
So all that is missing is the baptisms of Joseph'shchildren.


...

Margaret

to answer your question re whether children were always baptised

No, they were not!

Sometimes they were baptised years after their birth ............ for example, before they started work

Sometimes children were baptised in batches, 3 or 4 at the same time, so at any age between just born and age 10. This might be because there had not been a vicar in the church where the parents wanted the baptism to take place

Sometime the parents just did not bother.

Sometimes, as you've suggested, they might be Non-conformist .............. and not many of those records are available online, at least as yet.

I always like to look at the censuses myself ............. and just ahd to post this

Ancestry strikes again! :-D

1841 Census

Name: Joseph Mepey
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1796
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: Warrington
Hundred: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Warrington
Sub-registration district: Warrington

Piece: 521
Book: 10
Folio: 7
Page Number: 7

Joseph Mepey 45
William Mepey 17
Mary Mepey 13
Martha Mepey 8


I have submitted Alternative Information, as that site calls it

Thank you for that note.......just to add to the confusion.

I know that Family Search Org had over a thousand MASSEY names down as MAFSEY, because of the long S used in the script of the time. like an f but without the cross bar.
So hard to sort by name, lots of wild cards needed.
I had forgotten that!

However the FMP transcription is correct for the 1841 census entry. Confused on the 1851, but that may have been the family or the enumerator.

As you say they may have been lost in translation.....

Just seemed odd that the parents married at Grappenhall, and they all lived in the Warrington district.
However the James Taylor marriage was at the Manchester collegiate church. Where fewer questions would have been asked I suspect, since on occasions there were doz of marriages all at the same time.

Its just a question of knowing what records I have missed....

Thank you all for your input.

Margaret - Re: "Just seemed odd that the parents married at Grappenhall, and they all lived in the Warrington district."

The children seem to have been born in Latchford, which was a chapelry in the parish of Grappenhall. The church seems to have been rebuilt in 1829:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4466325
I've no idea of the state of the church before it was rebuilt, so maybe it' wasn't too unusual to be married in the parish church.

There were non-conformist churches in Latchford, so maybe they were baptized there, but it was not uncommon for them not to have been baptized at all.