Genealogy Chat

Hi Kath, I think I have to pay for the records because it's the staff at Nottingham Archives who will be doing the work, which is OK, as I don't want to wait until 2020! I sent my request off last night to the Archives, and they have to send the request on my behalf to the Health Authority. We shall see, but I can't think that they'd have any grounds to refuse. Thanks to you and OC for your help and good wishes, and also to Janet and Mary for their help too. I'll report back later. Chris

Hi Chris, It must depend on the different Health Authorities, because it didn't cost us anything, not even for the photocopies. All I did was write a letter saying that I had found from the death certificate that hubby's grandfather had died at this particular hospital/asylum and I realised that they had some patient records from the period covering his date of death. I said that I knew there was a closure period on the release of records, but that the Record Office had told me that in certain circumstances the records would be released to a relative, and that I hoped they would do so in this case. I just left it at that and a couple of months later (when I'd just about given up on hearing from them) the records dropped through the letterbox. Hope you have the same result. Good luck. Kath. x

Thanks you two, for all the info and moral support (because it was a bit of a shock, I admit). I e-mailed Nottingham Archives and they have an index of patients covering the years 1812 to 1919, and as might have been predicted, they do say: ==== Due to the nature of the information contained in these records, they are currently closed to public inspection for 100 years from the date of the last entry. In order to access these records we are required to write to the Health Authority responsible for them to request permission. If permission is granted we are also required to carry out the research on your behalf, for which there will be a charge. Before we can apply for permission to access the records you will need to supply us with the details of the person you are researching, including information about your relationship to them. We will also need your full postal address as any information we may find cannot be sent by e-mail. ==== Aargh!! I think I'll go for it though. It sounds similar to the procedure that you went through, Kath, although the archives hold the documents in this case. OC, I'll tell them what it says on the death certificate, and that I know what it means. Fingers crossed. :-) Chris

Oh gosh, Christine, yes, they certainly deserve forgiveness, poor souls. If every Victorian had had to wash their dirty linen in public, there wouldn't be many blameless ones. I think it is a lovely idea to go to the grave and lay flowers. Perhaps when you write off for the records, it might help your case if you state that you are aware he had syphilis. Good luck - do let us know how you get on! OC

Chris, It was actually the Health Authority that I got the medical records from the asylum from. I googled the name of the asylum and it came up with a list of what what records were still kept, so I rang the County Record Office and a lady there gave me a name of someone to contact at the relevant Health Authority. She said that whether or not they released the records was at the Health Authority's discretion. I wrote to the person concerned and heard nothing for about two months, and then, just after Christmas I got a letter from this person saying that in this instance they had decided they could release the records and sent me photocopies of them which also had a photocopy of a small photograph of hubby's grandad, which was a real bonus as we didn't have one of him. It was very poor quality and very small, but much better than nothing. These records were from 1944. Kath. x

Funny you should mention it, but that grave inscription is one of the things which started me off with this investigation in the first place. All I had was the letter from Doris to Osmund, and some information from the Walker family bible. I had no inkling that George would have died in the asylum because as far as I knew, they lived, died and were buried at South Leverton. It was only when I looked at the burial entries in the PR that I noticed it said George's abode was Snenton, which is the old spelling of Sneinton in Nottingham. After a swift bit of research I ordered the death certificate from Nottingham RO, and the rest is history, as they say. I read the inscription as being a message from George and Jane's children, acknowledging that their parents had done wrong, but saying 'don't have a dig at us because you never know when you might need forgiveness yourselves'! I tell you what, I'm going to visit the churchyard as soon as possible, wash the gravestone down as I know it's covered in algae, and leave a little bunch of flowers. I think they deserve a bit of forgiveness after all this time. Chris

Have just taken in the malaria treatment. That is interesting - both malaria and syphilis are caused by a spirochete and I wonder if one ate the other! Quack cures abounded and I wonder how many poor men believed they had been cured, when in fact the disease naturally goes into a long period of symptomless incubation, only rearing its nasty head in late middle/old age. OC

Yes, I was going to mention the inscription. Do you think somebody was having a sly dig?

I do worry sometimes about just what information my brain chooses to store, lol. In the light of what you know now, then the grave inscription is rather poignant, don't you think? In 1995 - yes, 1995 - the fifth most common cause of death in the UK was GPI. AIDS didnt even come into the top 100. OC

Hello Mary and Kath, I'm saving all these tips for when I visit the archives again. I do hope they have the medical notes from the asylum. It'll be disappointing if they don't. Very interesting discussion, thankyou. :-) Chris

Mary, That's very interesting, as on the medical records for my husband's grandfather when he was in the asylum, it gives records of his day to day treatment and general condition, and on one occasion he was given 'malarial blood'. We thought it was a very strange treatment and hadn't heard of it before. Kath. x

What an interesting thread. I had a quick google for GPI, and also found this: 'In 1917 Julius Wagner-Jauregg discovered that infecting paretic patients with malaria could halt the progression of general paresis. He won a Nobel Prize for this discovery in 1927.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_paresis_of_the_insane Nowadays, it's treated with penicillin, of course.

OC Thanks once again for the info. What interesting specialist knowledge you have! lol I've just had a bit of a delve on the internet, for symptoms and duration of the illness, and it fits what happened to George, from the time of his marriage to the time of his death. How strange, to think that this description of the cause of death was something I could have looked up so easily! I thought it was one of those vague causes - like 'old age' - that the doctors put on the certificate when they didn't have a clue. Anything but, it seems. I ummed and ahhed about posting the story on here, because Aunt Louisa had warned Doris and Osmond not to look into it (she was a school teacher, like her grandmother Jane, and very bright). I'm glad I did now, as the mystery was driving me nuts. To know what it was is much better than not knowing. :-) Chris

Christine I don't know about sleeping around - you only have to have sex with ONE infected person to get syphilis. Perhaps George as a young man, slept with the local tart - just once is all it would take. And his wife of course, caught it from him - probably. I doubt if your Aunts ever knew, or even suspected. Syphilis was a taboo subject, WORSE than straightforward insanity. If you are wondering about my vast knowledge on this subject, lol, I worked in the `1960s, at UCH in London, in the Medical library. I spent my lunchhours reading horrifying, Victorian medical books about Syphilis and frightened myself to death! I particularly remember the advice given by the author of one of the books, to physicians, along the lines of 'If the patient doesn't know what disease ails them, it is kinder not to tell them, nor their relatives, and let the cause be thought unknown. Be prudent in your description of the death cause and let not the word syphilis be found anywhere, to distress the family' GPI, or General Paralysis of the Insane, was the preferred cause of death. So tragic really - no treatment, no cure, and a horrible end, and lots of popular misconceptions about it tainting all who were family members. OC

OC and Kathleen: Sounds odd, but thankyou very much! This seems like a very plausible explanation, and I can imagine it wouldn't go down well at all with my family. I knew Louisa (she lived to be 105) and Doris and they were both very straight-laced ladies. Does this mean that George or Jane, or both, had been sleeping around? I suppose it does. I wonder if there are any medical records left from the asylum, I'll have to check at the archives next time I go. Janet: Thanks very much for the suggestion. The Whites and the Walkers seemed to be two of the bigger farming families in South Leverton, but the Walkers could have been tenant farmers rather than owners, it's a distinct possibility. Again, I'll see if I can check the poll books at the archives. Chris

I think OC is right. My husband's grandfather died in a local asylum from 'dementia paralytica', which was caused by syphilis. We didn't realise this until we managed to get a copy of his medical record from his time at the asylum. Kath. x

Could White House infact be White's house i.e house owned by a White family and leased by your ancestors? - slip of the pen, misheard commentary? Any refs in poll books for a White family owning property in that parish? Jay

Jane George's insanity is very simply explained and may have no bearing on the Vicar's suicide. General Paralysis of the Insane refers to death from untreated syphilis - this was the common euphemism used at the time on death certs, to save the family from 'disgrace'. (Syphilis was a major cause of death then - in fact it still is). His wife's paralysis was almost certainly due to undiagnosed syphilis. I hope you are not upset or offended by this - it was, as I said, a very common cause of death. It is unlikely that anyone in the family knew, or understood the deeath cert, and possibly they hunted round for an explanation for him going mad, and picked the Vicar's suicide as being the cause. Sadly, I don't think it was. OC

The supporting documents which I have for this story are: Death certificates of George Walker, Jane Walker & John Mickle. PR burial entries of George Walker and Jane Walker. Extracts from the Nottingham Journal and the Nottingham Review. A copy of the note to Revd Mickle regarding the loan interest. Transcribed (by me) entries from the lunatic asylum minutes regarding the admission of George Walker, and later, recording his death. Census entries from 1841 to 1861 for George and Jane Walker and their family. A large scale OS map of South Leverton showing the location of a White House. The big question is, how can I try and find more about what caused this tragedy to happen? I have scoured the Nottingham Archives and found nothing more than I've listed above, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to proceed. Any ideas would be very gratefully received. Chris

I have a family mystery which all stems from the following quote regarding my 3x great grandparents George Walker (1814-70) & Jane Roberts (1809-67). “Auntie Louisa confirms the fact that it was a fellow called White who got the Walkers out of the White House. A fact that was rather sordid ending with the vicar shooting himself and causing (great) grandfather to die three years later having gone crazy of mind.” George Walker and Jane Roberts had a son called George (1843-1908), who married Elizabeth Edith Briggs (1845-1932), and had 11 children. Three of the children were called John (1869-1940), William (1873-1953) and Louisa (1883-1988). William’s son was called Osmond (1907-1996), and one of John’s daughters was called Doris (1906-2003). The passage above is an extract from a letter written by Doris to her cousin Osmond in 1979. There is a White House on Town Street in South Leverton, near Retford in Nottinghamshire, but it is difficult to say whether the Walkers ever lived there. Nothing conclusive has been found as the censuses do not pinpoint house names, or even in some cases street names, within the village. So there is no real evidence gathered at the current time to suggest what might have caused the events above. The vicar referred to was the Reverend John Mickle, who had been the incumbent at South Leverton since 3rd October 1834. He had officiated at George and Jane’s wedding and had baptised all their children, so he would have known the family well, and they him. There is a small scrap of paper in the back of the baptisms register for South Leverton, which was found by the archivists when the parish registers were submitted to the county archives in Nottingham. It reads as follows: Revd. Mr Mickle All interest paid up to the 26 Augt. from which time the Interest on the entire loan will commence vs – 14.8.3 Whether this had anything to do with the events of 1866 is unknown. However, on the 27th October of that year, according to his death certificate, Revd John Mickle, aged 75 years, “destroyed himself whilst in an unsound state of mind”. An inquest was held the same day, and was recorded by the two main Nottinghamshire newspapers, although they both exaggerated his age. From The Nottingham Journal, Monday, October 29th, 1866: SHOCKING SUICIDE OF A CLERGYMAN. - It is our most painful duty to place on record the death of the Rev. John Mickle, vicar of South Leverton, near Retford, rendered the more so because he died by his own hand. It appears that on Saturday morning he rose at his usual hour, and soon afterwards had breakfast. He then wrote out some orders for the carrier to bring certain articles from Retford, and appeared to be in his usual state of health. Shortly afterwards he retired to a chamber, and with a horse pistol placed near the jugular vein, blew off the upper part of his head, scattering his brains in all directions. He was upwards of eighty years of age, and had been vicar of South Leverton since the year 1834. He married Mary, daughter of the Rev. John Holmes, vicar of the same parish, but by whom he has no issue. She survives him. He has died wealthy, but nearly worn out, and it is painful to contemplate his untimely end. A similar article appeared in the Nottingham Review, November 2nd, 1866. Revd. Mickle was buried beside the east window of South Leverton church. George Walker appears to have been so affected by his demise that he did indeed “go crazy of mind”. The county lunatic asylum committee meeting minutes of 16th May 1867 record that “the Orders of admission and Medical Certificates of George Walker (and others) were produced”. Just two months later, his wife Jane died in South Leverton on the 10th July 1867, “paralysis” being stated as the cause of death. George Walker was to stay in the asylum at Snenton in Nottingham for the rest of his life. He died there on the 21st January 1870, due to “general paralysis of the insane”. His body was brought back to South Leverton, and he was buried with his wife near to the south door of the church. The gravestone reads: In affectionate remembrance of George Walker who died January 21st 1870 aged 55 years. Also Jane Walker wife of the above who departed this life July 10th 1867 aged 58 years. Judge not that ye be not judged.