Genealogy Chat

Check it out - may be the reason for the reversion of name.

I have found Fanny on the 1841 living with what looks like her mother sisters and her son Robert in Macclesfield Cheshire. 1851 again in Macclesfield living with her sisters and her daughter named Mary Ann Carruthers, but no Robert. Robert married in 1854. 1861 Fanny is still living in Macclesfield with her daughter and sisters. I can't find any sign of James as yet, I think maybe he came from Scotland-(working on that at the moment). Roberts children were born Manchester and Macclesfield but all eventually settled in Manchester Chorlton. Robert was a cigar dealer/fancy goods/ grocer maybe there is some money in the family after all.

What area were these people living in and what occupations?

Hi, well there are SOME wills up to 1858 on National Archives Documents online - google for it. They are £3.50 to download. Ive had several and they have been of great help. (There are also some earlier London wills but I cant remember the site name). You could look at WW1 records on there too, if they are of any help on this line. Any other wills are available at York Probate by post or in London - by person but you need to find first if one exists! There is a probate list apparently available in main libraries - but Ive not attempted to sort through one yet. Ive been quite fortunate in getting so many online.

On my husbands side his 4x ggrandfather was John Smith Ashworth so dont know if his parents where married or if it went past his father but all the generations had Smith in them until my husbands GGrandfather didn't put Smith in any of his children's names, from 1861 census they used just Ashworth and Smith as middle name. 1841/51 which was annoying to find them they went as Smith and left the Ashworth off. Jeanette

Heather, where would I be able to check if there were any wills. I have only ever come across 1 will and it was handed down to me. Can you access them on line. Thanks all for you help in trying to solve my mystery, your help is very much appreciated. Jelly

Thanks Gwn and Lunar for your thoughts. James and Fanny married Jan 1835 and their first born was in approx 1833 so may be they weren't married. Its all getting a bit clearer now. Edward must have wanted to carry the male side of his family name on, how strange after so many years.

Ah, I see, you were thinking of Carruthers as a surname rather than one adopted as a middle name. Gotcha. Unerstandable seeing as I now notice all the kids got it as a middle name. Well, the above replies could be valid. These things in the distant past will never be fully explained will they? May be it was something that had wrankled him for years - the fact that his real surname should be Carruthers like grandad and he decided to do that for his own kids. May be he fell out with the Johnson crowd and chose to change his name so he wasnt associated with them. Or may be the Carruthers family had gone on to bigger and better things and he wanted to be known as related to them? May be that one of the Carruthers was childless/sonless and wanted an heir and money would be there when they popped off?? Interesting! Do some research on both families and see how they developed - whether either was in a 'superior' position etc. Check out wills aswell.

Thank you Heather, you have answered the question on Edwards birth certificate, I had been looking at the name Carruthers as a surname and not a middle name, but I wonder why he decided to drop the name Johnson when he married and why he didn't carry it on.

My first thoughts is James may have been disowned by his family for marrying Fanny, thus preventing him from inheriting and keeping his father's name so he may have taken Fanny's name on marriage. My family has an oral history that disowns a son o th grounds of who was married.

If Fanny and James didn't marry until after their children were born, the offspring took their mother's surname, Johnson. Later generation's children were registered with both of the surnames as part of their name but the birth certificates do not actually define the child's surname, at that time. By usage they were logged as Johnson, it being the latter name. Realising that grandfather was Carruthers, maybe Edward wanted to follow the male surname only. Gwyn

If you mean on the birth cert it says - Edward Carruthers - thats all that would be entered for his first names - it wouldnt include his surname in name of child box. Perhaps Im not understanding the question? His mother would (if married to dad) have her married name and then formerly with her maiden name. (or did you mean to say marriage cert rather than birth cert?) So you say he then dropped the name Johnson when his own kids were born? Are you saying that his grandparents werent married? And that her name was Johnson and the father of her children Carruthers? In which case certainly she may have used his name as a middle name as sort of proof who dad was and there may well be a bastardy bond somewhere? If you are saying you think they did marry then I dont have any idea! May be the Johnsons were more important a family in the district and they wanted to be associated with that name?? Hope someone can give you some better ideas than me!

Hi all, my gr grandads birth was registared under the name Edward Carruthers Johnson, but on the birth certificate his name is just Edward Carruthers and his father and mother both named Johnson. Edwards sibblings were also was registared under the name Carruthers Johnson. On their parents marriage certificate the name of their father was Robert Carruthers Johnson, now Roberts parents were James Carruthers 1810 and Fanny Johnson 1805, so why would they have used the the name Johnson unless hey didn't get married. I have found evidence of their marriage on family search 1835. Edwards children were all registered under Carruthers and the name Johnson does not appear again. Does anyone know why they would have used the name Johnson and also why Edward dropped it? Jelly