Genealogy Chat

I have an ancestor, born in 1811(ish) (so BMD register is no good) and every census entry for him lists his birthplace as Wales. As Wales is a fairly big place, and his name (Isaac Wilson) is fairly common I have the feeling that he is going to become my brick wall. I thought I would post this here on the off chance that someone might have a suggestion about a way round this problem. Or will I have to face the fact that this branch of the family stops here?

There is only one Isaac Wilson born in Wales within 5 years either side of 1811 listed in the IGI (an extracted record), if that's any help: ISAAC WILSON - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 28 FEB 1808 Llyswen, Brecon, Wales Father's name WILSON LLANGOED

Did Isaac marry...or remarry at all after 1837? If so, his father would hopefully be named on his marriage certificate. Not a huge help, but it's a start. What was Isaac's occupation? Gwyn

If that is your bloke you're going to have to know about the Welsh naming system. I've googled up an example - The Welsh used an ancient PATRONYMIC naming system whereby the children of a marriage took their Father's forename as their surname. As a result surnames were not fixed and changed from generation to generation. It works like this: Evan son of Thomas William would be known as Evan Thomas Evan's son, John would be John Evan John's son Rees would be Rees John Rees's son, David, would be David Rees David's son, James, would be James David If James then decided to abandon patronymics, he might retain the name David as his fixed surname or he might change it to Davies/Davis both of which imply 'son of' David. Some families used to string their patronymics together - thus James would be James ap David ap Rees ap John ap Evan ap Thomas ap William. Note that I have used English spellings here - you may find traditional Welsh or Latin spellings in early documents Sometimes the word 'ap' or 'ab' (originally 'mab') meaning 'son of' was incorporated into the new surname. Thus Owen could be Bowen; Richard could be Prichard: Evan could be Bevan; Huw could be Pugh. John usually became Jones. Names such as Edward and William had an 's' added thus becoming Edwards and Williams. Names ending in 's' like Thomas remained unchanged. Girls were sometimes 'verch' or 'ferch' meaning 'daughter of' and abbreviated to 'vch' or 'vz'. Traditionally women kept their maiden names when they married as there no surname for them to adopt. You very rarely see parish register entries using the word 'ap' or 'verch'. This practice continued up until the early 1800s in some areas, with rural areas clinging to the patronymic system longer than urban areas. Areas where English influence was strong abandoned patronymics earlier as did town families and the wealthy. The IGI takes 1 January 1813 as the cut-off date - before this date all IGI entries are listed using patronymic naming system, regardless of what the actual entry contained. In practice most people had already adopted surnames by 1812 and by the 1851 census examples are very few and far between. The years of transition from patronymics were ones of confusion and it is essential to look for both patronymic and fixed surnames when researching families in the 18th century. In the IGI, searches should be done in the given name index as well as the surname index. A man may have decided to use a fixed surname - but the village priest may have insisted on using patronymics in the parish register when he married him or baptised his children. Some people changed from patronymics to surnames half way through their families so that some children may use patronymics whilst their younger brothers and sisters use a surname. Sometimes a man would change from a patronymic to a surname at the time of his marriage - but his brothers may chose to continue with patronymics. Every family is different and you need to be aware that surnames use was not standardised for a while. Even when a family did chose to use a surname, they were often reluctant to relinquish patronymics completely and the children of a marriage would use the patronymic name as an unofficial middle name. Sometimes this would be incorporated as a double surname and sometimes as a forename. This practice could be continued for generations and may give you clues as to the ancestry of your family. The use of patronymics leads to a problem for modern day researchers - the Welsh surname stock is very limited because the modern surname is simply the forename of the man who last used the patronymic system in any particular family. Sounds fun!!!!!!!! Happy hunting.............LOL

Helen, that's really interesting! I think I'll print that - it might be useful with my own Welsh ancestors who seem to be untraceable once I try to go back over the Welsh border. Thanks for posting. :-)

I searched for two years for a relly born in Wales. Eventually found him in a village called Wales on the Derbys/Yorks border. :-) Terry

Please will you post his 1851 details? I'm having trouble finding him. Gwyn

lol Terence :-) Helen, Thanks for this info, . explains how my Granddad got his first name! I was thinking they had followed the Scot' tradition of naming their boys (their Dad was born in Scotland) they must have followed this patro' thingy thing. very interesting. Babz

Is this Isaac in 1851? Name: Isaac Willson Age: 44 Estimated birth year: abt 1807 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Ann Gender: Male Where born: Wales Civil parish: St Mary Whitechapel County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration district: Whitechapel Sub-registration district: Whitechapel North ED, institution, or vessel: 8 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 52 Household Members: Name Age Angeline Willson 10 Ann Willson 44 Collingwood Willson 11 Imogene Willson 8 Isaac Willson 44 Joseph Willson 13 Reuben Willson 15 Robert Willson 17 Thomas Willson 19 William Willson 1

Thanks to everyone for your replies. Yes Christine, that is him in the 1851 census. Helen, the information about the Welsh naming system is really interesting. I'll have to read it again in more detail when I'm not on my way to work for the night, and research the IGI with this in mind. I wonder if this might explain the name of his son Collingwood - which is an odd christian name (although I am forever grateful for that name, it makes locating the family in the records a lot easier). Gwyneth, I'm afraid he didn't remarry after 1837. His occupation was draper (1841-1851) and baker (1861 & 1865). I have found his marriage at familyhistoryonline - 13 June 1828, in Chelsea to Ann Parratt. Christine, thanks for having a look in the IGI. And Terence, I never knew there was a place in England called Wales - though I'm sure I wouldn't be lucky enough for that to be his place of birth - but it'll be worth a check. Thanks again for all the suggestions

Someone who can speak Welsh would probably be better at this but a thought just came to mind about Collingwood The father named on the IGI was WILSON LLANGOED Could this really be Llancoed? My extremely vague grasp of Welsh makes me think COED means Wood. Welsh pronounciation of Llan is sort of Clan So Clan-wood became Collingwood???? I'm probably totally wrong.............. Llangoed is a small village just north of Beaumaris, on the Isle of Anglesey so the word does exist. Update - Welsh translation site says goed and coed mean the same thing!

Thanks everyone, I have found this thread really interesting and have printed the naming system for future reference. Frances

Helen - that's an interesting thought about Collingwood, it'd be great if that was the meaning behind his name, esp if it means that the Isaac Wilson that Christine found on the IGI was my Isaac. I have also re-read the info about Welsh surnames, that's facinating. Even if I didn't have a Welsh rellie it's interesting to know. Off to bed now - just finished a night shift. I'll look forward to coming back on here tonight to see if there are more suggestions. Thanks again everyone for your help, it's nice to know that Isaac might not be a total brickwall after all.

Just thought I would add this in here, although probably everyone tracing Welsh ancestors already knows about it. http://www.llgc.org.uk:81/ From this site (part of the National Library of Wales) you can search Welsh marriage bonds. Not a lot of help to me, as I'm not sure who the parents of my Welsh ancestor are, and I couldn't find Wilson Llangoed's marriage either. But it might be useful to someone else.