Genealogy Chat

I've just received the two certificates for Leonard Hasman from the GRO, and thought anyone who was thinking of ordering similar certs might be interested in the results. :-) The two certificates look quite different, but definitely for the same person, and neither of them are photocopies of the entries. The Army deaths one is handwritten, and gives age and place of death, which aren't on the Naval deaths certificate. This latter cert is computer generated and looks rather like a more complete version of the index entry which I used to order it. It has date and place of birth on it (inaccurate because he fibbed). Apart from that the two are more or less the same in content. What really surprised me was that I paid the normal £14 for the two certificates, but was able to give a really vague index ref for one, because it's a free format field on the order form and the index entry was nearly illegible. I was crossing my fingers they'd accept it, which they did. Also, they sent paper copies of the burial record for Leonard from the CWGC website. I get the impression that the overseas section is less of a production line than the England & Wales BMD section; they seem to provide a more personal service. :-) I did find though that the amount of information on the CWGC website was almost as much as I've got on the death certs, and there are one or two things extra on the CWGC website which don't appear on either of the certs, such as the more accurate place of death (the cert just says 'France'). It's wonderful just to have the certificates though; I've been asked to tell Leonard's story at the Remembrance Day service at church, which will take place one day before the 90th anniversary of his death. It'll be nice to remember him properly after all this time.

I'm sorry, Valerie, I've confused things by introducing another relative who died in WW1 (James Hasman). He's the one I can't find any death index entry for. Leonard Hasman is the one with the entry in the Naval Deaths index. Apologies for that. :-) Chris

that Naval War Death record of him on 1837 you have should be his death cert surely ??? I sent for mine from the war deaths and it was a proper death cert.

Sue - it's really annoying isn't it? But I think that must be the answer, Valerie, I've just got to figure out what he might have called himself. His name was James Outram Hasman, and he appears on the Tyne Cot Memorial to the missing in Belgium (found on the CWGC website), and also in the book of remembrance in Hathersage church. There's also a medal card for him on A2A. Perhaps, because a body was never found, there just isn't a death certificate? Chris

I found my Uncles under a assumed name he had used when he signed up .

Christine my ggrandad and his brother died in WW1 5 days apart, and they don't appear in the GRO indexes. Sue

Hi Valerie, thanks for your advice. Yes, I paid for the download of the A2A record, and it's quite sad reading. He was assumed dead on the 13th Nov 1916, the date when Beaumont-Hamel was finally taken by the Allies, and the next of kin were informed. Six months later it says that the next of kin were contacted again, to see whether they had heard any news. They hadn't, of course, so he was pronounced dead. I really can't imagine being kept waiting all that time for news of a son possibly dead, but possibly alive somewhere. It must have been awful. I think maybe I'll go for it and order both certificates, just to see what the differences are. It's odd, but another relative who I know died in WW1 in Belgium doesn't appear in the GRO indexes at all, or at least, not under the surname he was born with. Chris

did you see this on the A2A site Online Document ADM 339/2 Name Hasman Leonard , Z/7174 Ordinary Seaman, Able Seaman 26 February 1897 Date range: 1914 - 1919. Source: DocumentsOnline (images of documents from The National Archives)

as there is only a Naval death for him on the war site I would say you are correct in what you say and its the same man.

I wonder if anyone would be able to help me please. Is it possible that someone who died fighting in WW1 might have more than one death certificate? I’ve found this entry on the CWGC website:- Name: HASMAN Initials: L Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Able Seaman Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Unit Text: Anson Bn. R.N. Div. Date of Death: 13/11/1916 Service No: TynesideZ/7174 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: II. F. 23. Cemetery: ANCRE BRITISH CEMETERY, BEAUMONT-HAMEL Then, after searching on 1837online, I found the following entries in two different indexes:- GRO Index: Naval War Deaths 1914-1921 Name: Hasman, Leonard Rank/Rating: A.B. Ship or Unit: Anson Battn. RND Year: 1916 Vol: RN Page: 1743 GRO Index: War Deaths 1914-1921. Army (Other Ranks) Name: Hasman, Leonard Rank: A.B. Number: Z/7174 Unit: RND Year: 1916 Vol: E.1 Page: 305 I’m pretty sure they’re for the same person, as various bits in each match the CWGC entry, and the surname is not a common one. Could it be the same certificate, or two separate ones, and if the latter, why might that happen? From what I’ve read about the RND’s participation in the war, it seems that the sailors were trained as infantry and seconded to the Army, but there was an uneasy relationship with their Army comrades because of their unwillingness to give up Naval traditions (and apparently the pay was better). Could this double index entry just be a case of the Army and Navy ignoring one another and each issuing a death certificate? Chris

See below.