Genealogy Chat

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Original Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:43:55 adoption/hints and hugs from other adoptees*Chapter 3* If you don't know, there are two previous threads 'Adoption/please be gentle on adoptees' - but they have got very long. The previous threads have worked as a place for adoptees to 'think out loud' and share their experiences with others. I started it (its not a secret) anonomously in order that it was everyones thread, not just mine. I hope having my name at the front will not deter anyone from using the thread. Hopefully fellow adoptees will continue to look in from time to time and be there for each other. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 (Currently on page 1) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:45:49 Doing as I am told and starting chapter 3.. hopefully people will pick out this new thread and relay their stories just as before hope no-one minds but am going to post a couple of the last replies on this thread for continuity. jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:46:41 Added by Maureen Penn on 11/05/2005 10:35:54 Hi Jess. Reading the messages again. I mailed you some time ago regarding friends mother, now 76, trying to get info on her birth family. She was born 1927 and adopted. She only managed to get her original birth cert approx 2 years ago and not a lot of info from Social Worker. It was me that told her just before Xmas that she had a twin sister. (info I see on birth cert gave a time of birth - sign of another birth). To cut a long story short the SW only admitted to 'a twin' after several meetings and an insistance on my friends part that we had found the evidence. However, to date, they will not give her further details of her twin or acknowledge whether she had been adopted or not. They say they have contacted the Westminster courts (place of adoption) and they will not open the file to her, perhaps at 'a later date' was quoted. Hels Bells, the woman is 77. Have they no compassion! She only wants to know if her sister is still alive before it's too late. It's been said on this message line that they now have 'the Right to Information. Apparently that's not actually true. Apparently the Data Protection Act can come into force. It is because the 'other twin' may never have known that she was adopted and may, even now, cause distress. I find that hard to believe in this day and age. If anyone can tell me how to get round this problem I would be only too greatful. All other info regarding birth mother, her marriages and other children, we have found out for ourselves. We only need an adopted name for the 'twin'. Mo. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:47:18 Mo Unfortunately there is no cross referencing system for birth/adopted names. SW wont give you that info, any more than they will give me my birth brothers names. For a twin this must be doubly hard, but the info is only open to the adoptee themselves. Do you have the other twin's original birth cert? Was she/he deffinatley adopted too? Jess x -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:47:57 Added by Sheila Molyneux on 11/05/2005 11:41:53 Hi Maureen, Have you had a look at the orignal entries of 1837, to see what the twins details are? sometimes the number is crossed through with a new number besides it, indicating the entry in the adoption register, if there is an entry you can at least order the birth certificate it may be nice for your friend to have at least some confirmation of her twins birth. Not sure where you stand about acess to information about her though, normally when you view records they will tell you about any older siblings born before you (wonder if you can get around that if she was the younger twin? cannot see what harm it can cause, if her sister had been born a year or two before they may have informed her of this, pretty ironic isn't it?) Good Luck with your search. Sheila -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:48:52 Added By Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 12:14:17 | Update Message | Delete Message Mo. I am supposed to be decorating (lol) and have been 'thinking' whilst wafting My roller, about this. If you can find the other twins birth record, at least the 'other half' name will be known, maybe you already have done this. The name she was subsequently given 70 odd years ago, at this stage is almost of little consequence in that, even if the social worker gave it to you on a piece of paper today, is going to be almost impossible to trace and even if you were able to trace it, the chances of her being alive i would say are at best 50/50. She'll probably have married, one twice, who knows? if the name was given to you as 'Ethelbert Aberentwhistle' maybe you'd stand a change but if it was 'Jane brown? Please don't be too hard on the SW - she is only doing her Job and what perhaps i'll regret putting to paper (or screen) is the dis-compassion shown by her parents, in not ever telling her the facts. Perhaps i've spent too much time thinking... better go jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:49:27 Hi Mo I agree with everything Jess has said and unfortunately can add no more words of wisdom. I think it's terribly sad that, for whatever reason, the twins were seperated but (at the risk of getting my head bitten off here), have you checked for a death for the twin shortly after the birth? That may be a reason why they were seperated for the adoption. Possibly the other twin didn't survive past infancy. Getting the twin's birth certificate would help you as it should say Adopted across the bottom if that was the case Lou -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:50:06 Added by MOE!-in-a- Muddle on 11/05/2005 20:09:05 Hi Maureen, my mother was born in 1922 and adopted in 1926. Next to her birth entry were the words' seeD26' I asked on this site and was told to look at DEC 1926 lo and behold there she was, so note down anything written next to birth entry and put it on this thread i can guarentee someone will be able to help best wishes MOE!...(formally Known as maureen foy) PS JESS WE NEED A NEW THREAD THIS IS ALMOST FULL AND MY FAVOURITE OF THEM ALL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Maureen Penn on 12/05/2005 13:29:19 Thanks Jess. Will print your answers out and pass to my friend. Have the other twins birth name but to date, no cert. However, will pass to friend and although we live in the Midlands perhaps she will find the time to visit London and Records Office. Will keep you informed if any luck. Thanks to those have tried to help. I would mention that I have put a query on 'Trying to Find' board giving appropriate names, but to date, no answers. Mo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Lancashire Lou on 12/05/2005 14:59:49 Just posting so this is locked into my threads! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Original Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:43:55 adoption/hints and hugs from other adoptees*Chapter 3* If you don't know, there are two previous threads 'Adoption/please be gentle on adoptees' - but they have got very long. The previous threads have worked as a place for adoptees to 'think out loud' and share their experiences with others. I started it (its not a secret) anonomously in order that it was everyones thread, not just mine. I hope having my name at the front will not deter anyone from using the thread. Hopefully fellow adoptees will continue to look in from time to time and be there for each other. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 (Currently on page 2) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Helen Kennedy on 13/05/2005 21:59:25 Nudge for Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Keith May on 14/05/2005 09:16:08 Nudge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 15/05/2005 21:50:54 Bumped for David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by MOE!-in-a- Muddle on 15/05/2005 22:00:37 Maddie, i don't think anyone can truly tell you what to do on this one,but you must follow your heart, myself i would say go for it maybe he is scared to approach you as the years have gone by? anyway best of luck in your decision and hope it all works out for you MOE! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jules Eccles on 16/05/2005 08:32:19 Maddie, What have you got to lose? Nothing. Contact him. The worst thing he can do is to say he doesn't want contact. But you didn't have contact before, you will have lost nothing but gained that knowledge one way or the other if he wants to see you. You seem to have that inner desire to find him but are afraid at the same time. Don't be. Find out. At least to put your mind at rest. It is betterto try and fail than to not try at all to coin a phrase. you have a 50/50 chance of a good result. I say take the chance. I did and I have been xtremely lucky. Every bit of information is a success whether that be good or bad news. That is the only way I coped with it all. You have to decide for yourself what to do. I think the question you have to ask yourself is - would you prefer to know or spend the rest of your life wondering? Hope this helps. All the best Jules -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 17/05/2005 12:49:36 Rachel- maybe ....? delete the thread on records and save the info from tips. Come onto here and we'll try and help. if you are an adoptee we can help you.. Accept my appologies if i am wrong jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Sue Armstrong on 18/05/2005 15:32:50 Hi, Can anyone help me I have received a letter from coventry adoption team about my search for my adopted brother 'andrew'.I have to ring the lady and was wondering what sort of questions should i ask her to gain information that might help me with my search,one question i am going to ask her if his file has ever been accessed,just not sure what else to ask,any surgestions? from sue -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 20/05/2005 08:20:21 This has slipped so far back! I guess that means everones searches are going well, so no news maybe good news. jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 22/05/2005 09:00:09 Bumped for a new searcher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jules Eccles on 22/05/2005 17:43:00 Hi everyone, Hope everyone is ok. Went to the open viewing on Sat for the house I'm wanting to buy. For 40 mins I was the only one there (along with my Nan) until another lady turned up. I was gutted. Any bids have to be in by Weds by Noon. It's a sealed bid. Didn't even know what that was until I found this house. Nan really loved the house and like me, didn't want to leave! I rang up later to see if there had been any other bids. There hasn't but the lady is very interested but thankfully she is in the same position as us. Now all I have to do is wait until Weds evening to see if anyone else is a stronger buyer. If not then all is in our favour. I'm a nervous wreck. My Auntie Christine has been saying her prayers for me, bless her. Could it be that she is praying for my soul, I wonder? She keeps telling me that I am my Mum reincarnated. I have the same habbit of tormenting her in many ways. She finds it so bizarre as obviously I didn't find them until the end of Jan this year! I guess you could say that some things are just in your genes and you just can't help it! Nan and Auntie Christine were just discussing our reunion this morning. They couldn't believe that I had ever been anywhere but with them these past 31 years. I know myself, that I felt as though I'd never been away. But to then hear them say the same thing is kinda strange but in a nice way. Jules xx -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Smiley Sammy on 22/05/2005 18:41:27 Hi all Can I just ask you people 'in the know' I have a birth cert from 1951, if this person was subsequently adopted would it definitely, definitely have the word adopted on the cert? This person has disappeared, no marriage or death to date, the younger sibling of this person was adopted, and it was assumed that this person was also adopted. I know I've read before that the word ADOPTED would be written on the cert, well it isn't. So can I rule out adoption? Thank you Sam -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 22/05/2005 19:14:08 Sami, I would say yes, biuy am happy to be proved wrong- d. Presume you have sight of original cert- how old were they when they dis-appeared?maybe they just changed their name (or their parent did) jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Smiley Sammy on 22/05/2005 19:29:39 Hi Jess, thanks for your help, the child did not grow up with their parents. The mother is still alive but wont say anything, an elder sister is quoted as saying very recently 'I always thought she was adopted' but I am assuming not, as we now have received the birth cert, and nothing at all has been added. No alterations on civil reg either. I'm also assuming that a child could not have been adopted without the parent knowing, sounds daft I know, but if a child was in care maybe made a ward of court, would the parent still have to give permission for a formal adoption? I'm thinking this child is likley to have grown up in care, or been fostered, or gone abroad before any marriage. (BTW this is about Shirley, after a very long haul, much searching, 4 marriages :-O we discovered her birth sister's present name, a letter was written to her grown-up son as we couldn't find a current address, and BINGO, she phoned Shirley yesterday :) :) :) the sisters are 52yrs & 56yrs and chatted like they'd always known one another, Shirley's ontop of the word. One more sister to find... Hannah) Sam --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Original Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 11/05/2005 20:43:55 adoption/hints and hugs from other adoptees*Chapter 3* If you don't know, there are two previous threads 'Adoption/please be gentle on adoptees' - but they have got very long. The previous threads have worked as a place for adoptees to 'think out loud' and share their experiences with others. I started it (its not a secret) anonomously in order that it was everyones thread, not just mine. I hope having my name at the front will not deter anyone from using the thread. Hopefully fellow adoptees will continue to look in from time to time and be there for each other. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 (Currently on page 2) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Helen Kennedy on 13/05/2005 21:59:25 Nudge for Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Keith May on 14/05/2005 09:16:08 Nudge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 15/05/2005 21:50:54 Bumped for David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by MOE!-in-a- Muddle on 15/05/2005 22:00:37 Maddie, i don't think anyone can truly tell you what to do on this one,but you must follow your heart, myself i would say go for it maybe he is scared to approach you as the years have gone by? anyway best of luck in your decision and hope it all works out for you MOE! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jules Eccles on 16/05/2005 08:32:19 Maddie, What have you got to lose? Nothing. Contact him. The worst thing he can do is to say he doesn't want contact. But you didn't have contact before, you will have lost nothing but gained that knowledge one way or the other if he wants to see you. You seem to have that inner desire to find him but are afraid at the same time. Don't be. Find out. At least to put your mind at rest. It is betterto try and fail than to not try at all to coin a phrase. you have a 50/50 chance of a good result. I say take the chance. I did and I have been xtremely lucky. Every bit of information is a success whether that be good or bad news. That is the only way I coped with it all. You have to decide for yourself what to do. I think the question you have to ask yourself is - would you prefer to know or spend the rest of your life wondering? Hope this helps. All the best Jules -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 17/05/2005 12:49:36 Rachel- maybe ....? delete the thread on records and save the info from tips. Come onto here and we'll try and help. if you are an adoptee we can help you.. Accept my appologies if i am wrong jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Sue Armstrong on 18/05/2005 15:32:50 Hi, Can anyone help me I have received a letter from coventry adoption team about my search for my adopted brother 'andrew'.I have to ring the lady and was wondering what sort of questions should i ask her to gain information that might help me with my search,one question i am going to ask her if his file has ever been accessed,just not sure what else to ask,any surgestions? from sue -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 20/05/2005 08:20:21 This has slipped so far back! I guess that means everones searches are going well, so no news maybe good news. jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 22/05/2005 09:00:09 Bumped for a new searcher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jules Eccles on 22/05/2005 17:43:00 Hi everyone, Hope everyone is ok. Went to the open viewing on Sat for the house I'm wanting to buy. For 40 mins I was the only one there (along with my Nan) until another lady turned up. I was gutted. Any bids have to be in by Weds by Noon. It's a sealed bid. Didn't even know what that was until I found this house. Nan really loved the house and like me, didn't want to leave! I rang up later to see if there had been any other bids. There hasn't but the lady is very interested but thankfully she is in the same position as us. Now all I have to do is wait until Weds evening to see if anyone else is a stronger buyer. If not then all is in our favour. I'm a nervous wreck. My Auntie Christine has been saying her prayers for me, bless her. Could it be that she is praying for my soul, I wonder? She keeps telling me that I am my Mum reincarnated. I have the same habbit of tormenting her in many ways. She finds it so bizarre as obviously I didn't find them until the end of Jan this year! I guess you could say that some things are just in your genes and you just can't help it! Nan and Auntie Christine were just discussing our reunion this morning. They couldn't believe that I had ever been anywhere but with them these past 31 years. I know myself, that I felt as though I'd never been away. But to then hear them say the same thing is kinda strange but in a nice way. Jules xx -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Smiley Sammy on 22/05/2005 18:41:27 Hi all Can I just ask you people 'in the know' I have a birth cert from 1951, if this person was subsequently adopted would it definitely, definitely have the word adopted on the cert? This person has disappeared, no marriage or death to date, the younger sibling of this person was adopted, and it was assumed that this person was also adopted. I know I've read before that the word ADOPTED would be written on the cert, well it isn't. So can I rule out adoption? Thank you Sam -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 22/05/2005 19:14:08 Sami, I would say yes, biuy am happy to be proved wrong- d. Presume you have sight of original cert- how old were they when they dis-appeared?maybe they just changed their name (or their parent did) jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Smiley Sammy on 22/05/2005 19:29:39 Hi Jess, thanks for your help, the child did not grow up with their parents. The mother is still alive but wont say anything, an elder sister is quoted as saying very recently 'I always thought she was adopted' but I am assuming not, as we now have received the birth cert, and nothing at all has been added. No alterations on civil reg either. I'm also assuming that a child could not have been adopted without the parent knowing, sounds daft I know, but if a child was in care maybe made a ward of court, would the parent still have to give permission for a formal adoption? I'm thinking this child is likley to have grown up in care, or been fostered, or gone abroad before any marriage. (BTW this is about Shirley, after a very long haul, much searching, 4 marriages :-O we discovered her birth sister's present name, a letter was written to her grown-up son as we couldn't find a current address, and BINGO, she phoned Shirley yesterday :) :) :) the sisters are 52yrs & 56yrs and chatted like they'd always known one another, Shirley's ontop of the word. One more sister to find... Hannah) Sam --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Angela Jones on 23/05/2005 22:06:01 special prayers been said for the lady recieving chemo i to have birth parents who dont want nothing to do with me but believe me the feeling is mutual even though it still hurts to know they still feel the same as they did 39yrs ago lots of love angie x -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jules Eccles on 23/05/2005 22:23:18 thanks for your kind words Angie and Julia. Jules xx -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Julia Andrews on 24/05/2005 07:42:53 Hi im sending loving vibes to lady having chemo treatment, all are hearts are with you God bless Julia x -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Angela Jones on 24/05/2005 14:25:17 has any one got ant tips on tracing birth grandparents my mother was born before my nan married my grandad so realy he is my step grandad my mother took on his name after they married so dont know what her real name was at birth my grandparents married 4yrs after my mother was born so it would of been 1950 and in the ladywood area of b,ham my grandad was called tom or thomas jones and my nan was francis but dont know maiden name very complicated family to say the least any tips would be helpfull best wishes angie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 24/05/2005 14:27:23 angela- does her birth cert have a fathers name on it_ that would be your next step Jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Angela Jones on 24/05/2005 15:18:09 havnt got her birth cert she was born in b,ham how do i apply for her cert angie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Sue Armstrong on 24/05/2005 17:34:22 Hi everyone, I have just spoken to lady at the Childrens society where my adoption file is held and it should be being sent out tomorrow recorded delivery to my social worker. thats my second bit of good news this week,not bad going I don't think. I am starting to get a little excited now as it feels like I am getting somewhere from sue -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by MOE!-in-a- Muddle on 24/05/2005 19:35:54 Christina, if they are on this site then they are looking for relatives like the rest of us, (good or bad news) i think you should go ahead and make contact and Good Luck,MOE! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 24/05/2005 19:49:20 Christina- tread carefully and with tact and caution. My father had 4 batches of children with 4 different women. He just kept moving on! The oldest son is dead - but HIS son is receptive.The 2nd born doesn't want to know, The 3rd born - have spoken to his wife (and his mother) but not him, and the eldest of the fourth batch of children knows of us and is okay, but doesn't want the others to know(MORE) The 3rd batch was a full sister , who like me was given for adoption.We have traced and are the very best of friends. So really it can go all ways or any ways- I would suggest contacting the eldest initially if you can and just gauge the reaction best of luck, let us know what the outcome is, wont you? jess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jules Eccles on 24/05/2005 20:14:52 Christina, There are no hard and fast rules about contact. I have 2 half sisters one i have a good relationship with, the other I haven't made contact with. I also have a half brother who I have a good relationship with. Both my birth have died, Mum when I was 8 and dad 14 years ago. I did find Grandad (Dad's dad) thru his school's web site purly by chance. I emailed saying that I was looking for information on (name) born (when) from (area) and that I was wondering if they could be related. I didn't state why I wanted to know or who I was. Just my new name (adoptive). Grandad emailed back saying he was his father and to ring him with pleasure as there was much to say about him. Needless to say I rang the following day and all went swimmingly. Moral of the story. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Just send an email and be a little vague about who you are. Just ask if they are related to such a person etc and send it. Wishing you all the best. Jules xx -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 25/05/2005 21:04:13 Unashamedly whacked back to the front!! Jess xx -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Jess Bowbag Bobbin dog on 26/05/2005 13:50:20 How did the file opening session go on the 24th Lorraine? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Sue Armstrong on 26/05/2005 20:22:24 hi Lorraine, how did viewing your file go on the 24th?.I will hopefully get to see mine very soon. From Sue -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Sue (Sylvia Z ) ** on 29/05/2005 05:57:10 Hi Jess, Jules, Lorraine and everyone, Back on thread one, which seems ages ago, I said I was looking for my Polish B/M. A new development has been that the kind Polish man in the Isle of Wight, who has been helping me, phoned. He has been in contact with a Polish lady who knew my B/M Krystyna during WW2 in a Signals regiment. This lady, Irena, has given him the phone number of another Polish lady, living in Spain, who also knew my mother. This lady in Spain wants me to phone her, too late last night, so will try early this evening as taking adoptive mother out for her birthday today (Sunday). What is so exciting is that the lady in Spain knew my B/M had had a baby and also that B/M emigrated to Canada after I was born. So the moral is .. NEVER GIVE UP, I have been searching for two years, needle in a haystack at times, but somehow every time I wonder if I will ever find Krystyna, a tiny bit of info turns up. I will let you know what happens. Love to everyone, thinking of those who are finding parents and family. Sue X -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Cat BaLou on 29/05/2005 08:34:04 Hi Sue I shall hold my breath and keep everything possible crossed for you that this is the breakthrough that you need Lou xxx -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Sue (Sylvia Z ) ** on 30/05/2005 08:28:52 Morning Lou, Thanks for your good wishes. The phone call was interesting. Apparently my b/m gave up nursing, as not well paid (ha ha) and worked in a bar to save for her fare to Canada. Toronto or Montreal, she is not sure. She was going there to join her sister!! I did not know she had any other relatives, thought she was an 'only' like me. So now I shall be searching for two rellies, not just one and there may be cousins too. Sadly this lady had no photos, but gave me a good description of b/m. This lady saw my mother on a regular basis, after she had given me up, she said b/m used to cry about this, but there was no way she could keep me due to financial reasons. No mention of b/f and she never asked. She really wants to help me and is writing to her friend in Canada. She had lost touch a long time ago, but is very keen to help me find b/m. Sue -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Added by Sue Armstrong on 31/05/2005 15:53:0