Genealogy Chat

I am trying to find my great great grandmother, Ellen Eliza Hays' mother's name for years and I thought if I could put this message for help. I am unable to find her birth certificate, due to common name and various spelling of Hays. Also I could not find her in 1851 and 1861 census. Her father was John Hays from Ellen's marriage certificate to James Rugless in 1867 at Bethnal Green. His occupation was a cap maker. Ellen Eliza Hays was born around 1845 at Bethnal Green, Shoreditch or Hoxton. I found her birth of places from 1871 onwards of censuses. Her occupation was also a cap maker. Once I ordered a birth certificate in with her father’s name through GRO few years ago. It was Ellen Elizabeth Hayes on Mar 1844 at Bethnal Green. It was unsuccessful and got a refund. I would be greatly appreciated if someone could help me to solve the problem. Thanks, Steven from Australia.

Have you considered this one from the IGI ELLEN HAYES Female Event(s): Birth: 15 FEB 1845 Shoreditch Workhouse, Shoreditch, London, England Parents: Mother: DORA HAYES - but no father listed so looks as if illegitimate.

I presumed this was the one Stephen was referring to Ellen Elizabeth Hayes Year of Registration: 1844 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Bethnal Green County: Greater London, London, Middlesex Volume: 2 Page: 56 - so the one you have found Bernice might be worth considering.

This could be the Ellen Hays (found by Bernice) in the 1851 census - with parents Patrick and Ellen (Patrick labourer) Ellen Hayes Age: 5 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846 Relation: Daughter Father's name: Patrick Mother's name: Ellen Gender: Female Where born: St Giles Westr, Middlesex, England Civil parish: St George Hanover Square County/Island: Middlesex Country: England

Bernice, thanks for your help. It seems hard to say if it was her. Because of 1851 census where Elaine mentioned it. Elaine, thanks for your help.I don’t think that it was the 1851 census with Patrick and Ellen because Ellen’s father was John Hays who was a cap maker. Also I have seen Ellen Hays’ baptism in 1846 at Shoreditch Workhouse with her mother Dora. I don’t think it was her because she did not give her name Dora to her children. Her children were Elizabeth, James, John Thomas, Luke, Ellen Eliza, William Robert, Emily and Mary Ann (who was my great grandmother). I have a photo of Ellen Eliza Hays (Rugless) from my grandfather. He don’t know more about her. :-(

This may be a case of a common name making it difficult to find the birth but the fact that you can't find her on the '51 & '61 census may mean you have to start thinking 'outside the box'. DON'T believe everything you read on the marriage certs. I have three certificates where the info.on father was misleading sometimes deliberately others unintentionally. Names changed to save the blushes although they are long dead. Case 1 My grandmother Gertrude SMITH had a completely fictitious William SMITH as her father on her marriage cert. I had grown up knowing she was illegitimate but it did make me doubt my info. & I checked that she hadn't married a cousin which of course she hadn't. When my g-gm died she was recorded as the 'widow' of Charles SMITH. Total fiction. I'm sure men with these christian names did feature in her life - someone had to father her 4 illegitimate children. Case 2 Ann SMITH had a William SMITH as her father. It took over a year to find she was the illegitimate daughter of Louisa SMITH who 3 years after her birth married William JONES. I don't know if this was intentional or not. Ann would no doubt have viewed William JONES as her father as he raised her, so when the question was asked about his name, she may just have said William & as her name was SMITH, that's what the cleric wrote. Case 3 Slightly different. Joseph SMITH had Daniel SMITH as father which was true. The problem was Daniel SMITH was the illegitimate son of Joshua Smith & Elizabeth JONES who later married. Daniel was baptised as a JONES, married as a JONES & registered all his children as JONES. Sometime between the birth of his last child & marriage of his first the whole family changed to SMITH so Joseph & his siblings all married as SMITH & everybody died as SMITH. Sorry this was a bit long-winded but just trying to show some of the problems that may be waiting out there for you. Glen.

I also note that as a reason she did not give the name Dora to any of her children. Why would she? My Dad was named after a certain duck - never let your children choose a name for a baby. Yes sometimes other names in the family are great big huge clue but what if she wasn't raised by Dora and didn't know that she was a her real mother or just didn't like the name. Have you got any hints from the witnesses at all?

PS. I forget to mention about her children's names from their grandparents. James' parents were John Rugless and Mary Ann McDonald. William Robert was James' brothers' names. I thought it might be a clue for Ellen's mother. It could be Emily or Elizabeth? Glen, thanks for your message. I understand about it. It was interested and I have learnt a lesson. I was wondering if it was not John Hays. Because it was same name of her father in law, John Rugless who died in 1851. Pippa, thanks for your message. It was interested. Yes, I have her witnesses in her marriage certificate. It was Mary Ann Rugless who would be her mother in law or sister in law. Another one was William Edwards. I don’t know who he was.

Finally I got her birth certificate. It was Jun 1846 in St George Hanover Square from FreeBMD. Her mother was Jemima Woodland. I have been looked for it for ages. Someone found her family in 1851 census in Ancestry UK recently. It was Emma Hays with two sons' same names John! It should be Henry. They were with Ellen. That's why I could not find Henry. Now I am surprised to have descendens of Woodland to 1660s, thanks to a GR member. Never give up and keep looking! :-)