Genealogy Chat

I have posted this before - giving it another go incase anyone has some inspiration! Here's what I definitely know to be true: My grandfather Llewellyn John Davies, was born in 1909. He served in 1st Battalion Welch Regiment and was based at Salamanca Barracks in Aldershot at the time of his marriage (5th December 1931). He married my grandmother Mary Hickey in Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales. Llewellyn died in 1965 (aged 56) in Merthyr Tydfil - occupation was Out Crop Borer. Here's some of the problem: My mother, and her siblings, remember very little of their father, Llewellyn - she doesn't know his parents names,but says that he was brought up by another family in a lodging house. She also remembers that he had 'step-brothers/sisters' in the Rhondda Valleys - namely Treherbert and Treorchy. She doesn't know where Llewellyn was born, but he was definitely Welsh! Some other details: Llewellyn and Mary's marriage certificate states that father was Robert Davies - deceased, occupation Coal Miner The witnesses at the marriage were Eileen Hickey (Mary's sister) and Robert Davies (possibly Llewellyn's brother??) What little progress I have made: I ordered a birth certificate for Llewellyn John Davies 1909 Pontypridd - which is the right district. It is the only birth I can find fitting the full name and correct year. I was hoping that the father's name would state Robert Davies - how wrong I was. It states the birth address in Treherbert, with the mother's name Margaret Martha Davies, occupation Charwoman. However, the father's name and occupation have just a line drawn through the box. Could this mean that father was unknown - or is 'father unknown' stated on certificates? Could the father have died before the birth registration - or would his name be included and 'deceased' marked on certificate, as on marriage certificate? Or could there be other explanations - such as Margaret not wishing to name father? I have started to research the Welch Regiment side of things, but this is more difficult as Llewellyn did not die in service. I am considering researching Mining Records (if there are any) to see if they have Robert Davies, but I guess it's quite a common name so not holding out much hope of being certain I have the correct Robert Any suggestions on what I can do next? Thanks very much, in anticipation of your many replies! Apologies for such a long message Gail

If Margaret was unmarried when she had Llewellyn, then she couldn't name the father on the birth cert unless she had the father with her at the registrars. As the father named on L's marriage cert had the same surname as the unmarried mum, it is most likely that Robert Davies didn't exist, and his name was included to save L from saying he was illegitimate. Having said that, I realise there were a lot of Davies families in Wales (lol) so maybe this is the name of his biological father?? (If it is, I can't imagine how you would trace him, unless Margaret married him after L's birth). The idea that an illegitimate child might be brought up by another family or a family with step-siblings would seem to fit well...... Merry

was just about to say the same as Merry, that being that Llewelyn was probably illigitimate and 'made up' the father's name - and saying he was deceased was also common practice for those people inventing a father. It would be a good idea to try and find the PRs and see what it says there. I have a birth cert for 1878 with no father on it, but the PR gives his name - so well worth a check, but don;t hold your breath, it's a bit of a game of luck.

It's a pity there is a wait for the next Census. Illegitimacy was very common amongst working class people across the UK - it was just hidden on official records. In Wales I have found several visiting grandchildren on census returns - all you have to do is look for an appropriate age of daughter living at the same address and the child is often named after the grandmother/grandfather. I've been told that entire villages were full of women who had 7lb 7 month babies. Life was very tough in the valleys at the time. People had more important things to worry about than upper class 'Victorian values'

If Margaret was married to Robert Davies, even if she had a child and didn't give her husband as the father.....the birth cert for the child would still say, ''Margaret Martha Davies, formerly Davies'' for the mother's details. If she was an unmarried mum the cert would just say ''Margaret Martha Davies'' in the mother's box. Merry

I agree with all the above but sorry for hi-jacking your thread but does anyone know what it would say for an entry where the mother's maiden name maybe the same as the married name?

That's what I meant in my last post! ''Margaret Martha Davies, formerly Davies'', would be written for a married woman called Davies who had been a Davies before her marriage. If she was still a spinster, it would just say, ''Margaret Martha Davies''. Merry

Sorry the heat has made by brain on go slow!

Thanks everyone You've given me a few things to work on Gail