Genealogy Chat

Have hit a bit of a snag and need some advice - see below in a minute

My maternal grandfather Len was born in 1919 to Thomas Raynor and Susan Graham. Thomas was listed as a plasterer's labourer on Len's birth certificate. By the time Len got married in 1945, Thomas had died and was listed as a gardener. I know that Len was the youngest of a number of children but he would never talk about his family and even my mum, aunt and uncles couldn't get any information out of him while he was alive - he would always change the subject. All they do know is of a couple of siblings (also deceseased) but know there were more than that and unfortunately they have lost contact with any of the cousins they used to know but they do know that Len was considerably younger than the others. After trawling the marriage records for decades I finally found Thomas and Susan's marriage entry and have the certificate. Thomas (my great grand-father) is listed as a 'boots at a hotel' and the son of Thomas Raynor, a private soldier, deceased. I found Thomas and Susan in the 1901 census and he lists his birth place as India (British Subject), they also have a daughter called Margaret born 1899/1900 (named after Susan's sister Margaret who witnessed the wedding I assume, my mum's middle name is Susan) So I trawled overseas birth records and the only entry I found for a Thomas Raynor born in 1864 in India was in the army records - so I ordered the certificate. This says Thomas's father was called James and his mother Louise. James was a sergeant in the 80th regiment of infantry and that Thomas was born in 1864 but baptised in 1869 (is this a typo?) in Jhansie. So is Thomas on the birth certificate the same Thomas as on the marriage certificate and census? Was it that by the time he got married he'd forgotten his father was called James or perhaps it was James Thomas. Or did the registrar mess up - Susan's dad was also called Thomas! Thomas and Susan named one daughter Louisa, could this be after Louise (wife of James) as it's not a name that features in Susan's ancestry. I need help [no wisecracks thank you:o))] where on earth can i go or what do i need to do, to prove or disprove that Thomas and James are the same person? Any pointers would be gratefully appreciated. Frustratedly Cath

Cath Two points: Thomas and James can often, in my experience, be confused. (Do them in floridly curly writing and you will see what I mean) You say he was the much younger child and was tight-lipped about the past. In my experience, this often means that his older 'sister' was in fact his mother, and that the Grandparents took him on as their own child, to save the shame and scandal. I have this in my family - son registered as child of James and Hannah. Only the baptism of this child shows that he is illegitimate and in fact the son of James' sister. Do you think this is a possibility? OC

Crone (may I call you that?) The details on the birth certificate are typed so I suppose whoever dealt with my request could have misread the details - thank you. I'll have to try and find a way to check that out. The marriage cert is a copy of the original written entry and the Thomas is quite clear. I don't think that Len was the child of one of his sisters, it just doesn't fit with what little we know, but never say never I guess. I suppose I need to figure out how to get to see the actual birth entry for Thomas and see if it was mistranscribed - that could take some time being at other end of country assuming the records are at Kew. Thanks for the advice Cath

Cath I didnt mean that I thought THOMAS was wrong, I meant that JAMES could possibly have been Thomas really, as James was alive during the era of copperplate script. I have often had trouble myself when looking at old PRs in deciding whether what I am reading says Thomas or James. OC

OC My fault - didn't make myself clear - that's what I thought you meant - what I was ineptly trying to say was that the birth certificate I received is obviously a typed up copy done specifically to fulfil my order (not a scan like the normal ones we get from GRO) so whoever did the typing on 18 July 2006 may have misread the Thomas in the original entry as James. Sorry if confused you - my confusion is enough on the board regards Cath p.s. sage advice you've given about the IGI on your new thread

found these births on the familyrelatives site only from 1911 Q3 to 1920 No Surname Forename1 Forename2 Forename3 Mothers maiden name District Page No Event Quarter Year View Image 1 Raynor Charles Graham Whitehaven.10b 1427 Birth 2 1913 2 Raynor Leonard Graham Whitehaven.10b 1240 Birth 3 1919

Marie Thanks I already have these - Leonard is my grandfather Len and Charles my great uncle Chuck. There's also a John and a Margaret that we are pretty confident about and a Louisa, Katie, Thomas and Elsie that may or may not be siblings. But as I say at present trying to work out Len's grandparents is a big enough problem to be getting on with!! Thanks for looking though cheers Cath

Found the same overseas entry that you found for Thomas 1864 Reg 80th - Vol 1196 - Page 14 - Jhansie Also found Betsy Raynor - 1864 Reg80th Vol 1196 Page 14 Jhansie

I've just sent an email to GRO to ask them to check the typed birth certificate I received - hopefully whoever was on data input duties on the 18th was having a bad day and the actual name in the entry was Thomas not James - I have a feeling this could be the case as the birth was registerd in 1864 and his birth date is shown as 1864 but the baptism date is typed as 1869 - I can't see the army going back to a 5 year old birth entry and adding in baptism details. Fingers crossed!!!! Cath

Ooh Marie missed that one - thank you very much. Will risk my pennies and order this one I think when I hear back from GRO - you may have found a great-great aunt Thank You cath

have you found them on earlier census'?

Marie haven't found anything for Thomas - but don't know when the family returned to England - the 80th moved around a lot between 1870 and 1900 going from India, to england, to Ireland, singapore, africa and numerous other countries but I will go and have a look again - think was so stumped by the certificate details that all normal plans of attack were wiped from my brain! Cath

found this on the 1881 Name: Thomas Raynor Age: 16 Estimated birth year: abt 1865 Household: View other family members Family and neighbors: View neighbors Gender: Male Where Born: East Indies Civil parish: Wymering County/Island: Hampshire Country: England Street address: 'Hilsea Barracks' Wymering Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Trumpeter Royal Artillery Source information: RG11/1169 Registration district: Fareham Sub registration district: Fareham ED, institution, or vessel: Barracks Folio: 88 Page: 9 (click to see others on page) GSU Number: 1341286

Marie you just beat me to it - there's also Bessie - Betsy perhaps? I want to look for more right now but if I don't get a shift on I'm going to be late for an appointment. Why does life insist on getting in the way of genealogy!! Thanks for the help :o)) Cath

found Bessy as well in 1881 View Record Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship to head-of-house Civil parish County View Image View Record Bessie Raynor abt 1865 East Indies Servant Lea Ashton Ingol and Cottam Lancashire View Record Anna Riley abt 1857 Huddersfield, Yorkshire, England Wife Lea Ashton Ingol and Cottam Lancashire View Record Annie L. Riley abt 1879 Preston, Lancashire, England Daughter Lea Ashton Ingol and Cottam Lancashire View Record Henry D. Riley Preston, Lancashire, England Son Lea Ashton Ingol and Cottam Lancashire View Record William J. Riley abt 1852 Accrington, Lancashire, England Head Lea Ashton Ingol and Cottam Lancashire View Record Ellanor Rowe abt 1853 London, Middlesex, England Servant Lea Ashton Ingol and Cottam Lancashire She's on the 1891 and 1901 as well. Still in Lancashire.