Genealogy Chat

Olde Crone, It's not me advertising on the Channel 4 Family Tree. I've come across a number of Umpleby researchers though but none so far have been able to help with the area I'm currently interested in. If you are able to send me his contact details I would be very grateful. Please PM me. Many thanks again. John

John Are you the Umpleby who advertises on Channel 4 Family Tree? If you are not, there is another Umpleby out there researching as well! If this is not you, let me know and I will get his contact details to you. Olde Crone

Thank you very much Heather, Snowdrops, Olde Crone, Philip and Toria, for all your interest, advice and suggestions. Come Monday I shall start to undertake some more research. I have to do most of my research online though as I don't live in the U.K. Many thanks again, John

John I was so carried away by my own verbosity that I didnt answer your real question! Try - phone directories, post office street directories, trade directories, Rates Books, Electoral Registers. If that fails, go after the local newspaper and trawl through them, the more local the better, even the sort that report local produce shows and local football etc. Sadly, very little of this is on line but you could try to find the Nelson Local Archives Centre and email them, asking them what kind of ephemera they have for your time frame. Hope this helps Olde Crone

Hi, I know this might not be the correct answer, but my brother was adopted by my biological father, and his original birth cert. had his biological fathers surname on and now he has one with my biological fathers surname/his adopted fathers surname. Hope this may help Toria

It may be that Frieda, while she was pregnant with William Nelson, was approached by the Nelsons who offered to take on her unborn child. So grateful was she, that she gave the child the second name of Nelson. But it is of course possible that either Mr Nelson, or one of his male relatives was the biological father of the child. This would be difficult to prove of course, as this seems to have been a cover-up job and there probably is no Court Order for maintenance of the child. Another rather obscure point occurs - there was no legal adoption procedure in those days of course. But Umpleby seems to have been a careful man - he made a Will and used the term 'adopted'. Very often in those days adoption was 'legalised' for want of a better word through a Solicitor and I wonder if this MIGHT have happened in this case. And as Solicitors are very good at keeping stuff for centuries, there may be some interesting family papers tucked away in a vault. I managed to track down the Solicitor who had handled my Greta Great Aunt's admittedly modest affairs and he was able to let me have a copy for a few ££ (but that was 20 years ago!) Olde Crone

Hi Phillip, Please correct me if you think I may be looking at this the wrong way but so far I've been thinking along the following lines: - Freda Reinhardt got into trouble in Germany and was sent to England to live with her aunt, S Umpleby (nee Braeseke) or for some reason she came to England and got into trouble after she arrived. Anyway her aunt and her husband J. Umpleby adopted the first child. A couple of years later Freda, being a bit of a wild child got into trouble again, this time possibly close friends (William and Sarah Jane Nelson) of her aunt and uncle (S and J Umpleby) adopted the child. What do you think?

'5) J Umpleby gave 1 share of his estate to S Umpleby (nee Braeseke), 1 share to his adopted son C.A.Umpleby and 1 share to his neice Freida Reinhardt. (ref: J Umpleby's Will of Dec 1918).' Looks like frieda was a naughty girl on more than one occasion and the first child was 'kept in the family' too. Looks like you're headed in the right direction to me.

Going by what Old crone suggested, and this is just a hunch cause i'm new to this. but i'm thinking... Child born to unmarried mother, mother uses fathers surname as childs middle name. Fathers family - parents, aunts & uncles maybe even a sibling... adopt the child. Thus the link between a middle name and the adoptive parents. Just an Idea but i know a lot of illigitimate children were 'kept in the family' so to speak.

Hi, thank you very much for you reply. I would agree with you normally about a childs surname on a birth certificate but in this case I think that Nelson may be a reference to his adoptive father as his bio-father is unknown. Of course I may be completely wrong. Please could I ask for your fresh opinion as to what you think about the following information I have documents for. I will try to be brief. 1) S Braeseke (German lady) came to England and married J Umpleby. (ref: Marriage cert). 2) Frida(Freda/Frieda) Reinhardt (German lady) came to England. (ref: My fathers word of mouth). 3) Frida Reinhardt had a boy, C.A.Reinhardt, Oct 1910, Leeds (address A), father unknown. (ref: birth cert). 4) Frida Reinhardt had a boy, William Nelson, May 1913, Leeds (address B), father unknown. (ref: birth cert). 5) J Umpleby gave 1 share of his estate to S Umpleby (nee Braeseke), 1 share to his adopted son C.A.Umpleby and 1 share to his neice Freida Reinhardt. (ref: J Umpleby's Will of Dec 1918). 6) S Umpleby (nee Braeseke) gave amount X to Sarah Jane Nelson of Acron Street in the City of Bradford the wife of William Nelson Blacksmith, gave amount X to William Reinhardt commonly called or known by the name of William Reinhardt Nelson, gave amount X to C.A.Reinhardt Umpleby and the proceeds from the sale of all remaining assets after funeral expenses to go to Freda Reinhardt. (ref: S Umpleby's (nee Braeseke) Will of July 1920). My aim is to find out what happened to William Reinhardt Nelson, did he get married and have children, etc. Do you think I am going about my investigation in the wrong way? I'd really like to have your opinion (or anyone's opinion) on how I should proceed. I've been looking into this for a while now and haven't really got anywhere. Many thanks, John

John I think you are misunderstanding the information on the birth certificate that you have. A child's surname is NOT given on a birth certificate, it is 'inferred' from the name of the father normally, but where only the mother is shown, then the surname is inferred to be the same as hers. It was extremely common for the unmarried mother to give the child two first names, the second of which reflected the name of the biological father - Nelson, in this case. Of course, that isnt a rule that is set in stone, but it is very often true.It is the mother's way of recording the name of the father of her child in the only way legally open to her. Hope this helps. Olde Crone

That's very interesting. The birth certificate says he is William Nelson with mother of Frida Reinhardt. I will have a look at the yorkshirebmd website you mention. Thank you very much for your help

John Just looked on Yorkshirebmd and there is no William Nelson listed for 1913 born Leeds. There is however, a William Reinhardt born 1913 in Leeds (Leeds West district). In fact he is the only William Reinhardt born between 1905 and 1926. There are 3 marriages listed for William Nelson - one in 1932, one in 1933 and one in 1948. No deaths listed as it stops at 1924. You could write/email Leeds Registry Office (address on the website www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk) and ask them for the marriage certificate where the father's name matches your William's. Hope this helps some. Snowdrops

I hadn't thought of that, it's worth a try although I'm not sure that it will get me far unless I can get a birth date reference from it. Many thanks, John.

It's possible that he's still living so have you asked for a lookup on the electoral roll? Heather

I am trying to find William Nelson, born 25/05/1913 in Leeds. His bio-mum was Frida Reinhardt on the birth certificate, no father mentioned. He was adopted by William and Sarah Jane Nelson. His name is actually William Nelson on his birth certificate. He lived on Acton Street in Bradford sometime around the 1920s but that's all I can find. I've looked on freebmd, LDS and Ancestry but no luck. Please could anyone suggest where I can look now. Many thanks, John