Genealogy Chat

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If any of you are researching Welsh ancestors, you may want to make a note of this information I found whilst reading a back issue of Practical Family History (Jul 2005). The article 'Sourcing Welsh Ancestors' states that up until 18th Century most Welsh people didn't use the normal surname system that we now know of. They used patronymics. What this means is a child would have been given his father's FIRST name as his SURNAME. So, using their example, let's say Robert Richards had a son named Evan. So his name would then be Evan Roberts (an s was added in later times - previously they would put 'ap' in-between e.g. Evan ap Robert. Sometimes the 'a' would get dropped and a 'p' (or 'b')attached to the patronymic to become Probert (or Pritchard or Bevan etc). So when Evan Roberts grew up and had a son named, let's say, Richard...his name would end up as Richard Evans. Isn't that interesting? Also, it says that Welsh parish registers didn't specify a child's surname up until 1813 - and because of this the LDS Church has assumed that the child will take his or her father's forename as their surname. This might help a few people with Welsh ancestors to understand better and find things more easily.

That's fascinating, but I bet it causes confusion, as adults and children in the family will have different surnames - I think !!!, if I've understood this, lol. You learn something new on this site every day. Thanks. Kath. x

This is comparible with Russia, until early C20, at least (all those '-ova' and 'ovitch' names). Iceland used that system until even more recently, I think - N Edvaldsdottir, and M Edvaldsson would be sister and brother. At least one country uses matronyms - i.e. the mother's name, instead of the fathers (?more reliable???). My husband remarked that a recent TV programme said that the Irish O'-names would use the maternal grandfather's name - but that might be more of a usage like ''Fitz-'' when the (usually noble/royal) father of an illegitimate child acknowledged his parenthood. A similar arrangement explains many English surnames: Robinson, Peterson, Jameson, Johnson... Yes - I do find names interesting! Christine

I've noticed in my husband's Welsh side that in the 1840s and 50s the surnames were Evan and William and in the 1860s onwards they began to be Evans and Williams. But its just like English ancestry - they change county of birth every census, try to have the birthplace so badly mistranscribed it could be one of many Llan-somethings, marry two wives both called Margaret and name all their children the same names as their brothers and sisters. One big difference though is that whereas English lot on my and husband's side tend to have gaps of 2 years between children, in the Welsh lot its less. I have one poor lady, still in her early 30s, with children aged 12,11, 10, 8, 7, 6, 5, 2 and 4 months!!! I think the gaps for 9 and 4 and 3 were children that died. nell

My friend is Finnish and there the females take their mother's first name as their surname and boys take their father's first name as surname! However, to balance this out, very strict genealogical records are kept - for the FEMALE line! My friend can trace her female line back to the 14th century, and as she remarked, doesnt matter about the men! I believe the patronimic naming system was used in Scotland also, well into the 1700s. OC

Thanks for that Athena, have replied so I can find this later and copy it for my records. Frances

From somewhere I seem to recall that the Welsh system changed because of the difficulties that arose in the legal system and hereditory title.....Deeds, property ownership , marriage, wills etc were all difficult to trace when the surname changed each generation....I think it was the English government that changed the system.

Nell, I don't think the gaps between kids was anything to do with being Welsh! OK so all mine are English but - Birds & Bees time LOL... Mother Nature usually stops a woman getting pregnant for the time she's actually breastfeeding a baby. So in the average family, this would result in a pregnancy every 18 months - 2 years or so. If the family was wealthy enough to have a wet-nurse, she could (and frequently did) get pregnant again very soon - babies every year. And in some not-so-wealthy families, they would get the baby off mum as soon as possible, so she could go back to work. Some jobs it would be fairly easy to have the baby with you. I should image its a lot more difficult breastfeeding while you are down the pit (but apparently it did happen).

Colin The Welsh had their own laws for many centuries and their inheritance laws were particularly interesting (to me!). They did not have a system of primogeniture (i.e. where the eldest son inherits the lot) but had a general and equal shareout, including the women and illegitimate children too. One writer has suggested that this was the main reason that Wales did not have any cities or even large towns for many centuries - there was never a big enough piece of land to build much on and wealth never got consolidated within families. It is an interesting social comment that many of the other countries of the world who still have this system, are also 'poor', whilst countries which have Primogeniture, are mainly 'rich' OC

Thanks for the information, fascinating. Some time ago someone posted this Welsh Cultural Site, lots of great stuff on it for those with Welsh rellies. www.gtj(*)org(*)uk/en/index

Traditionally as previously said a child would have the father's name as a surname Originally Boys:- ap XXXX e.g. Rhys ap Dewi (Reece sone of Dewi/David) ap comes from mab meaning son. Girls: nch XXXX e.g. Rhian nch Dewi (Rhian girl of Dewi) nch is short for merch (ferch or verch epending on mutation) meaning girl and used as daughter. (nch sometines writen as vch) After the English invaded and banned Welsh from being spoken ap and nch were repaced, so ap Dewi and nch Dewi could become Davids or Davidson meaning child of David. a few names worth noting are: Powell which comes from ap Hwyel (Howell) Preece coming from ap Rhys Price from ap Rhys - another mutation Pugh from ap Huw Beven from ap Even Prichard from ap Richard Bowen from ap Owen given names may not be gender spacific. Some names tat we know as female were male and visa-versa. http://www.amlwchdata(.)co.uk/welsh_surnames.htm http://www.data-wales(.)co.uk/names.htm http://family-tree.hypermart.net/origins_of_welsh_names.htm