Genealogy Chat

I have posted this before - giving it another go incase anyone has some inspiration! Here's what I definitely know to be true: My grandfather Llewellyn John Davies, was born in 1909. He served in 1st Battalion Welch Regiment and was based at Salamanca Barracks in Aldershot at the time of his marriage (5th December 1931). He married my grandmother Mary Hickey in Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales. Llewellyn died in 1965 (aged 56) in Merthyr Tydfil - occupation was Out Crop Borer. Here's some of the problem: My mother, and her siblings, remember very little of their father, Llewellyn - she doesn't know his parents names,but says that he was brought up by another family in a lodging house. She also remembers that he had 'step-brothers/sisters' in the Rhondda Valleys - namely Treherbert and Treorchy. She doesn't know where Llewellyn was born, but he was definitely Welsh! Some other details: Llewellyn and Mary's marriage certificate states that father was Robert Davies - deceased, occupation Coal Miner The witnesses at the marriage were Eileen Hickey (Mary's sister) and Robert Davies (possibly Llewellyn's brother??) What little progress I have made: I ordered a birth certificate for Llewellyn John Davies 1909 Pontypridd - which is the right district. It is the only birth I can find fitting the full name and correct year. I was hoping that the father's name would state Robert Davies - how wrong I was. It states the birth address in Treherbert, with the mother's name Margaret Martha Davies, occupation Charwoman. However, the father's name and occupation have just a line drawn through the box. Could this mean that father was unknown - or is 'father unknown' stated on certificates? Could the father have died before the birth registration - or would his name be included and 'deceased' marked on certificate, as on marriage certificate? Or could there be other explanations - such as Margaret not wishing to name father? I have started to research the Welch Regiment side of things, but this is more difficult as Llewellyn did not die in service. I am considering researching Mining Records (if there are any) to see if they have Robert Davies, but I guess it's quite a common name so not holding out much hope of being certain I have the correct Robert Any suggestions on what I can do next? Thanks very much, in anticipation of your many replies! Apologies for such a long message Gail

The usual reason for the father's name not being stated on a birth certificate, and a line in the box, is that the child is illegitimate, which is generally confirmed by the mother's surname (although it is not unknown for the mother's maiden name and the father's surname to be the same). If the father died before the child was born I would expect to see the father's name given but the word 'deceased' inserted also. I would be inclined to try to find the mother's birth record to confirm her maiden name. Christina

I would have thought that the most liekly explanation is that your G grandmother was Margaret Martha Davies b 1886 Merthyr daughter of Henry Davies and Margaret, HSe is the only Margaret Martha Davies from the Merthyr district that shows up on BMD and the dates look right. My guess would be that Llewellin was an illigetimate child and that they put Robert Davies deceased on the marriage certs to save face. Of course it's possible that the father also happened to be called Davies or that Robert was infact the fathers name , but it may prove impossible to find out for sure. Wade

Without his birth cert how can you be sure he was born 1909? I ask because my own grandfather's death cert in 1972 has the wrong year for his birth on it. nell

Thanks for your replies I know he was born in 1909, due to marriage and death details Gail

No, you only know the age given on marriage and death certs. This isn't necessarily right. My own grandfather's age on his death cert was wrong by a year. I have lots of people in my family tree & husband's family tree whose ages are moveable. Some of them age less than 3 years between censuses and others more than 20. Don't confine your search just to 1909. nell

The ages on most of the death certificates I have are out by a year or two (it depends on the informant getting the information right). You can only confirm the date of birth by finding the birth certificate. My grandmother's age on her marriage certificate in 1912 is 28, which would give a birth year of 1884. On her death certificate it gives her age in 1931 as 44, which would give a birth year of 1887. She was ACTUALLY born 1889, but I think that because of a 19 year age difference between her and my grandfather they both wanted to try and make this seem less, so on the marriage certificate she added 5 years to her age and he chopped 3 years off his. I think my grandfather wanted to keep up this pretence as even my grandmother's headstone has the wrong age on it, and my grandfather's army records have the wrong age for him. Look for the birth certificate to be sure. Kath. x

Ok - thanks for the replies again Any idea how I can get a different birth certificate which would be the right one - bearing in mind the information in my initial mail? Thanks for your help Gail

Have spoken to my mother and aunt and they say he was definitely born in 1909 as both he and his wife (Mary) were born in the same year. I seem to remember this in stories I heard as a little girl - so maybe the cert I have is the right one? (I live in hope!) Gail