Genealogy Chat

Not sure where to start. 2 people on my tree are causing me problems. 1- Sophia Richards, born about 1825.Birmingham I have found a Sophia Richards in IGI born 13/04/1825. Her parents are Daniel Richards and Margaret Hanson. So I follow this family through the census: 1841 - Sophia is listed as 15, living with Daniel, 45, spectacle maker, Margaret,45, Alfred, 20, journeyman, Margaret,12, Edwin,8, Daniel, 5. living in Church St, Birmingham 1851-Sophia now living with her brother, Alfred,(optician)at 3 Bull st. with Mary, Alfreds wife, age 30 and their daughter, age 2. 1861. Then she moved out and must have got married. I know she married Joseph Rose. I have sent for a marriage cert of a couple, Sophia Richards and Joseph Rose, Married in Harborne, Birmingham (Harborne is a place that until recently many members of my mothers family lived). The marriage took place in Dec 1853. So it makes sense till you see the father. Her father on the cert is Charles Richards, Labourer, NOT Daniel Richards, Spectacle Maker. Also I have come to a few dead ends trying to find out the parents of Joseph Rose. On the cert his father is listed as William Rose. But I cannot find them as a family in 1841. Jospeh was married before by 1851, so I can't find him with parents then. I just cannot seem to get any further with him. He was born in Birmingham about 1825 ish. Can anyone help with any of this? Sophia's parents? Joseph with his parents? Thanks Mandy X

might be a mistake on Vicar's part (got names muddled up) or maybe nerves got to poor girl and she blurted out the wrong name? Or even her fathers name was Daniel Charles or Charles Daniel?

Yes I suppose so, Louise. Maybe I will have to look and see if I can find a middle name for him somewhere. But why would he go from being a spectacle maker to a labourer? Seems a strange career move.

Hi Mandy It looks very much as if you may have been chasing the wrong Sophia. If she says on all subsequent censuses that she was born in Birmingham, then Warwickshire is the place to start, but there is no guarantee that her father didn't die when she was a small child and so appears on no censuses. It is also possible that she is a servant in a household by 1851. Can youu find the marriage witnesses on any censuses? These may provide additional clues.

Ok this sounds daft but looking at the handwriting on the 1841 census, could it be that Daniel looks like Samuel on the original certificate? You'd need to see the original marriage document to see if that is the case. Heather

why Samuel? Yes there are witnesses. I'll look into those. thanks xxx

ok, I've looked for the witnesses andthink I found them in 1841, but no clues there either. There cannot be many Joseph Rose's who married a Sophia in Birmingham around that time, can there?

There is this on Freebmd site. Maybe a possible? Marriages Dec 1855 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CAMMERER Caroline K Norton 6c 770 RICHARDS Sophia K. Norton 6c 770 ROSE Joseph K Norton 6c 770 SEELEY Thomas K Norton 6c 770

whoops, that's the one I have got, sorry. The writing on the cert looked like 1853, but it is in fact 1855. Thanks Gwyneth. Mandy X

Oh :( Back to the drawing board! Gwyn

really sorry Gwyn. My head is just going round and round with this one. Mandy X

A distant cousin, Kay, who is tracing the Richards side wonders if they could have lied about their fathers on the cert. Did they run away and marry in secret? Very romantic. I think this could be the answer. Her father was a skilled man, Joseph came from unskilled family. He was a widower already with 2 small sons. Did her parents object to her being involved with him. I guess I'll never know............. MandyX

Hi Mandy Not what you want to see, but there is this entry on freebmd: Marriages Jun 1856 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richards Sophia Kings Norton 6c 561 Any betting that SHE is the daughter of Daniel? (This is a bummer, as I can't spot another Sophia Richards on Ancestry on 1851 or 1841.)

Is this her on the 1851 census Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image Charlotte Collins abt 1809 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England Wife Birmingham St Thomas Warwickshire Isaac Collins abt 1808 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England Head Birmingham St Thomas Warwickshire >>>>Sophia Richards abt 1831 Birmingham, Warwickshire, England Lodger Birmingham St Thomas Warwickshire

Thanks Phoenix and Kathy. I hadn't found either of these entries. Guess I can throw my lovely romantic story of running away together in the bin now!!! Guess I'll have to send for the cert to be sure. Many Thanks Mandy XX

Hi Mandy Sophia says she's: 34 in 1861 43 in 1871 59 in 1881 I can't find her in 1891 and her age is given as 72 when she dies in 1893 With all that variation, she could well be recorded as 20 in 1851 and there's nothing to say which is the correct age. There's this in 1841: Sophia Richard abt 1832 birthplace city Warwickshire Does the image hold any clues?

Thanks Phoenix. I hadn't noticed that the ages were so 'varied'. I will have to look at the image in 1841 as you have suggested. I found her in 1891, mistranscribed as Sophus Rose!! Got to get my little ones off to bed now, so Sophia is going to have to wait till tomorrow. Thank you everyone for all your help Mandy XX