Genealogy Chat

I've more or less given up on this. I want to find either a marriage or birth in the 1840's in Canton, China. I've phoned the oversea's records office at smedley but they tell me records weren't started till later on, and to google chinese ancestry and a great help that was! PLEASE has anyone any idea's.

If you can give me a name I can have a look on 1837 overseas records.

Thanks Carol but I doubt you'll have any joy as I was told the records didn't start till later on in the 1840's. Francis Bradkirk BIRLEY married [I think a Chinese lady] name could be ? Yowen probably in the early 1840's and probably in Canton, China. I have found a reference to him marrying a Milicina Eleanor Thornton on 30 March 1847, this was possibly oversea's as there is no record of it in England, as her father was a Lt Col it could have been a military wedding. My great grandmother Susie BIRLEY was born in Canton, China about 1845. She shows 21y on her marriage cert in 1866, as 25y on the 1871census, 36y/46y on the 81/91cen and 57y on the 1901cen. Many thanks

I recently examined copies of the China Morning Post in the National Newspaper Archives, Colindale. The first issue came out early 1845, so you might strike lucky. This is the period of the Opium Wars, so you should consider why your ancestors were there. A military connection would seem extremely likely, so this could lead you to regimental records. Presumably you are also looking for the death of Francis's first wife, the Chinese lady who's surname will be Birley at the time of her death some time prior to 1847?

Joseanne, are you saying that Susie was his daughter? The Pedigree of Birley of Lancashire, p.41 & 48 states that he had 'no children' (See also Burke's Landed Gentry, 1952 edition, page 188 'd.s.p.')

Paul I've seen Burkes Landed Gentry and it says Francis Birley of Canton dsp and all references from others researching Birley's have him the same but all have their source from Burkes. My great grandmother Susie was born in Canton China according to the 1871/81/91 & 1901 census in about 1845. Her marriage certificate in 1866 [Scottish one] shows her father as Francis Birley, a tea merchant, deceased and mother as Birley [no first name] nee Yowen, deceased. I have always understood that my fathers grandmother [Susie] was half chinese. Francis Bradkirk Birley [the Burkes one] was in Canton China in the 1840's, I've found various references to that. I have his death certificate that shows him as a Tea Merchant, and he died in 1855. The death entry in one of the Lancaster newspapers show him as 'of Canton, China'. Having two Francis Birley's, both tea merchants, both in Canton China about the same time, and both dead by 1866 seems, well not impossible but fairly unlikely to me. I've contacted Burkes to see if they could tell me where they would have got their information from, but they couldn't although they said it probably came from a family member. It could be that if Francis married against the families wishes then they wouldn't recognise the marriage. Boy do I need a break here, but I don't think it's going to come. Josie

Paul, I've just googled Colindale, and it looks like the China Morning Post isn't on the internet and you have to go there, can you confirm that for me please. Thanks Josie

Have you seen the following site? might be of some use http://genealogy.about(.)com/od/china/

Joseanne, you would indeed have to go to Colindale. Is that a practical proposition for you? I quite agree that Francis's family may not have recognised his marriage to a 'native' - she was probably not even the same religion! By the way - don't sound so despondent! We all get to this 'brick wall stage' at some point but all you need is one little clue to get you back in action.

Lunar, Thanks for that site, I've had a quick look and have put it in my favourites to look at again, hopefully it will give me ideas of where else to look. Paul I've been off & on this one for ages and just going round in circles. How I wish my dad or his sister were still alive so I could ask them questions. I did ask his cousin but she is very old and can't remember that much about her gran's background apart from that she thinks she finished her schooling in Lancashire and lived with relatives there but I think that is guess work on her part. I'll probably get a lead when I least expect it. Have to have a day in London looking through the China Morning Post, now that will please my husband. Josie