Genealogy Chat

Here's what I definitely know to be true: My grandfather Llewellyn John Davies, was born in 1909. He served in 1st Battalion Welch Regiment and was based at Salamanca Barracks in Aldershot at the time of his marriage (5th December 1931). He married my grandmother Mary Hickey in Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales. Llewellyn died in 1965 (aged 56) in Merthyr Tydfil - occupation was Out Crop Borer. Here's some of the problem: My mother, and her siblings, remember very little of their father, Llewellyn - she doesn't know his parents names,but says that he was brought up by another family in a lodging house. She also remembers that he had 'step-brothers/sisters' in the Rhondda Valleys - namely Treherbert and Treorchy. She doesn't know where Llewellyn was born, but he was definitely Welsh! Some other details: Llewellyn and Mary's marriage certificate states that father was Robert Davies - deceased, occupation Coal Miner The witnesses at the marriage were Eileen Hickey (Mary's sister) and Robert Davies (possibly Llewellyn's brother??) What little progress I have made: I ordered a birth certificate for Llewellyn John Davies 1909 Pontypridd - which is the right district. It is the only birth I can find fitting the full name and correct year. I was hoping that the father's name would state Robert Davies - how wrong I was. It states the birth address in Treherbert, with the mother's name Margaret Martha Davies, occupation Charwoman. However, the father's name and occupation have just a line drawn through the box. Could this mean that father was unknown - or is 'father unknown' stated on certificates? Could the father have died before the birth registration - or would his name be included and 'deceased' marked on certificate, as on marriage certificate? Or could there be other explanations - such as Margaret not wishing to name father? I have started to research the Welch Regiment side of things, but this is more difficult as Llewellyn did not die in service. I am considering researching Mining Records (if there are any) to see if they have Robert Davies, but I guess it's quite a common name so not holding out much hope of being certain I have the correct Robert Any suggestions on what I can do next? Thanks very much, in anticipation of your many replies! Apologies for such a long message Gail

My feeling is that you have the right certificate and that your grandfather was illegitimate. The mention of Treherbert, which matched a place that your family had mentioned makes it even more likely. The rules of registration at this time would not allow a father's name to be entered on a birth certificate unless he was married to the mother. This was not always followed, the rules were not always strictly kept, occasionally the father was named. In your case I'd be pretty sure the mother was unmarried. Have you been able to find Margaret in 1901?

One of my rellies led me a merry dance with the same thing. On marriage cert. he put fathers name same as his own (deaced) occ. tram driver. I spent months chasing round for this elusive tram driver, eventually discovered rellie was illigitimate and had invented the whole thing to save embarrassment at his wedding. Sylvia

Thanks for the replies No, I am unable to confirm Margaret on 1901 census records, as there are a number of possibilities - that is recorded as Margaret Davies, or Margaret M Davies - I can't find any records of Margaret Martha Davies unfortunately. I suppose the likelihood is illegitimacy, and therefore I presume that I cannot progress any further? At least on father's side Thanks again Gail

Have a look at Barbara Dixon's tutorial on birth certificates for some useful info on the recording of the father's name, as well as a lot of other useful info: home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates According to this, then if a mother was widowed by the time of the child's birth, the father's name would still be entered, but would be followed by ''(deceased)''. If the father's name was left blank on the cert, then the parents were not married at the time of the birth and the putative father was not present at the registration. (if married, then the father was always named, even if he wasn't present at the registration). Therefore, in the case of the cert that you have, it seems most likely that the child was illegitimate. Whether or not this is the correct cert for your grandfather is another matter - I also have Davies in Wales, and they're a real nightmare as it's such a common name in that part of the world! Richard