Genealogy Chat

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Can anyone tell me why ? I wanted to copy my 3xgt gramps baptismal record from Bacton in Norfolk. The staff at Norwich RO looked it up in a book and said the vicar of that parish denied permission. I have not come across this before, surely these records are in the public domain; although I know ofcourse certain churches have not allowed LDS to film their records en bloc but surely individual records are a different case? Kat

Hi Kat (Lovely to meet you on Saturday, put a face to the name and be able to attempt to pronounce your name correctly!) I think that I'm right in saying that copyright vests with the individual vicars. They may be obliged by law to deposit their records, and the record office films them to save wear and tear on the original documents. But that doesn't mean the vicars surrender their individual rights. It's a bummer and it's a reason (amongst many others) why parish registers will never be as easy to search as censuses. Norfolk has something like 700 parishes. The total number of incumbents is rather less, but even so, each would have to be contacted for permission to allow their records to go online. There is always the possibility that you could write to the vicar and request his permission, but he's probably one of the awkward squad.

So......A hypothetical Q I assume (??) that if Kat could visit the Norfolk CRO she would be allowed to view the record, but not make a copy of it, because of the Copyright?? Is this why RO's state you must ask if you wish to use a digital camera?? (I think you see what I'm getting at?!!) Merry

Phoenix So does that mean.... Records deposited with the Local Record Office are only allowed to be 'copied' if the Vicar gave permission. If the records are for a Vicar long deceased .....One would have to obtain the present incumbant's permission to 'copy'? Chris

Hi Merry I think that you are spot on there. The National Archives is a single organisation, so allows you to copy docs as they don't have to ask anyone else. Other record offices will hold material from all sorts of donors, some items merely being on indefinite loan. When you do take a copy, it is still within copyright. You usually have to sign an agreement that states you only use it for personal research or other stated purposes. Most places are far more relaxed than they used to be, but there are usually specific clauses, saying that you should not transmit documents in electronic format...

Chris, in a word, yes. What I am not clear about, however, is whether permission once given can be revoked by a future incumbent.

If you can find out where the Bishop's Transcipts of that parish's records are archived you should be able to look at those. Might be worth looking on Genuki for the information or on the Norfolk Family History Society's website. Christina

Kats original query is not clear on whether or not the RO had the copies..............may be that they don't and that they are aware that the particular vicar is uncooperative................I have come accross a similar situation where the vicar will allow you to view the records that he has not submitted but wants £15 per hour and no photo copies may be taken or cameras allowed. This information was given to me by Manchester Archives when they checked if they had the church records that I asked for.

Parish registers remain the property of the parish church even when deposited for safe keeping. If they have deposited the registers but not given blanket permission to copy it probably means they don't want the registers copied en masse. In my experience if you apply to the current incumbent and state that you want to copy a limited number of entries and for family history purposes they will almost certainly say yes. As to charges made for registers still in church: the Church of England has set fees to be charged for viewing/searching registers which are still in the church - part goes to pay for the vicar's time (but the fees are offset against their stipend so they don't actually get any extra pay) part goes to the parochial church council - presumably to offset cost of storing the books correctly. Some churches waive the fees or ask for a donation but are within their rights to charge the full fee.

Sorry, just to clarify: I found the record on film at the RO. I filled in the usual form to for the staff to make copies for me of about 6 records I had found that day. (At Norwich you cannot photocopy them yourself as in other RO's I've been to.) They could photocopy the 4 for Yarmouth but not for Bacton. They have a book in which to check whether or not permission had been granted. I have never had that problem before anywhere else.... find the record on the fiche... take to photocopier..Bobs your Uncle as it were. ....no questions asked. Maybe all Suffolk incumbants for example have given their permission. LDS may have the records but I like to have a copy of the original where I can. Thanks for all your replies, I think I will write to the vicar at Bacton and get, if possible, his written consent. Kat Phoenix, nice to meet you too. ...and you are right, at Norwich you have to sign re the copyright as you do with BMD certs from ONS

Perhaps it depends on whether the registers have been filmed - if on film, you can usually make copies your self. If there is only the original register, this is actually difficult to use for photocopying purposes - can damage the register, and most record offices I go to prefer you to make your own transcript, saying this is policy for conservation purposes. Jay

Virtually all Norfolk records on familysearch are from transcripts, rather than original registers. Even those shown as extracted are usually from transcripts. The same is true for Devon and various other counties. The bishops refused the LDS permission to film the records. I don't know the thinking of the current bishops, but the old ones may well have attracted clergy with similar views who are still in place. I do hope that you are able to get a copy. Such facilities were so prohibitively expensive when I did my research that I relied on my note taking. There are certain registers that I'd like copied in full, with ancestors on every page. I spent a small fortune when I was there last summer and still could go back for more!