Genealogy Chat

Going through all this lovely stuff I have been sent I find one ancesto shown in 1805 as a bricklayer and 'copyholder of the manor of Willingdon'. What would these signify anyone please?

If a tenant was a copyholder of the manor any sale of his property or the succession of his heir would have to be conducted through the court baron and would be subject to a payment to the lord of the manor. Thus the court rolls, rentals and surveys of a manor are a rich source for family historians and can be particularly useful for the medieval period, before the introduction of parish registers (although, beware, they are generally in Latin until 1733). Manorial records can also throw light on the lives and concerns of the large proportion of the population who struggled to draw a living from the land, through their description of the customs of the manor in the regulation of the use of land, the pasturing of animals, and the tackling of nuisances. from www. surreycc .org .....manorial records hope this helps Kat but probably doesn't....I guess this is the info you have lol sorry

Many thanks Kat - erm, thats helpful!! Ive also got the same guy acting as a bondsman now for a marriage licence - blimey, Ive never had all these interesting things before. (Eat your heart out, Glen!)

http://paleo.anglo-norman.org/law1.html you could look here? Kat

Laymans terms LOL!! My very own......This is the only thing I know about Copyhold Tenancy!! Copyhold tenancy is that thingy (lol) where the surname of the copyhold tenant has to remain the same.....and is the reason behind a lot of the aliases we see in PR's.......So if you see James Taylor alias Brown marrying Miss White, then it may not be that James Taylor was illegitimate and Taylor and Brown are the surnames of his parents, but that he has a stake in a copyhold tenancy in his mother's surname (or granny's surname or whatever) and so is maintaining the surname to make his claim at a later date. His children might be baptised as XYZ the dau/son of James Taylor alias Brown as well...... You need Olde Crone for this enquiry! Merry

Adding to Kat's reply Until 1926 there was a form of property ownership called Copyhold, whereby land was held from a lord of a manor. Copyhold land could be bought,sold,inherited or mortgaged but each new owner had to be admitted as a tenant in the manorial court. A copyholder sold land by surrendering it to the lord of the manor, on condition that the lord admitted the buyer as the new tenant. Sounds very much like what we know as leasehold. Chris

there is a good definition here http://58.1911encyclopedia.org/C/CO/COPYHOLD.htm feeling useful this morning!! Kat

I hate to contradict you, Merry, but this is an extract from the will of my great-great-great-grandfather John HORNER: And as to for and concerning all and singular my freehold, copyhold and leasehold estates of which I am possessed (the Copyholds having been surrendered to the use of my will), I give and devise all that my Copyhold brick built messuage or tenement together with the rights, monies and appurtenances thereunto belonging situate lying and being on Sauls Green in the parish of Layton in the county of Essex held of the Manor of Ruckholts unto my daughter Sarah Charlotte Noone, the wife of Arthur Noone late of Stratford in the County of Essex, Saddler No mention that she had to change her surname back to Horner. Kate.

Heather At this point i would like to point out that i am still not impressed,next you will be saying that Lord Sondes is one of your lot,and owned all the land in my neck of Norfolk. Glen

Copyhold: A form of land tenure, officially at the will of the Lord of the Manor, but actually more like modern freehold than a tenancy. A copyholder wanting to quit could specify who was to be the next tenant. Thus, copyhold land could be bought and sold, let out to undertenants or used as security for a loan, such as a mortgage. It was held from the manor in return for a rent (generally much less than the market value) and the performance of particular duties. In earlier times, money was scarce and services such as working on the Lord's own land (the demesne) and military duties were of relatively greater importance. Over time, these were commuted into payments of money. The requirement for military service was abolished by statute in 1660: this is taken as marking the end of the feudal system. Apart from the rent, fees (fines) were charged when the land changed hands. The legal record of the land holding was the manorial court roll or book; the tenant received a copy of the entry, hence 'copyholder'. The tenant might also be called a 'customary tenant' of the manor. With the passage of time, copyhold tenancy was replaced by freehold, and was finally abolished in 1926. I knew three years studying medieval history would come in useful one day.

Well thanks everyone, I thought Id got it half way through that but then lost it a bit towards the end,. Im still wading through all this stuff (up to 14 kids on my GGFx4 lot now, no wonder I didnt get any dosh out of this). Im feeling that this is sort of leasehold but with a share of the freehold (to use modern day lingo). That the tenant/copyholder was in a very secure position? This is circa mid 18th century and they seem to have had this copyhold thing since at least 1668. So definitely a long term arrangment. Oh I knew I must have landed gentry somewhere - mother always said small hands were a sign of aristocratic heritage!! Isnt this brilliant, Im getting so much wonderful stuff from this man, I do feel so guilty. And there are wills flashing around all over the place, kids being left £100 each which I guess was a fair bit of dosh in 1768. Even great nephews and neices are getting £20 or £30 each. OH THIS IS LOVELY - and there was I last week thinking have I got as far as Ill ever go - woo hoo.

If we are talking Norfolk (or a few other counties) check out this link: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/mdr/ A few records have got through the net, but in general it lists exactly what records are available. NB Some people surrendered their copyhold right 'to the uses of their will' which meant that you can often find a copy of the relevant bit of the will in the court records. And it is likely to be in English even pre 1734.

Hi Brenda (Im feeling like you posh lot now, do I get a special badge? OR have we all got the funny right thumb?) Its actually Sussex, Rottingdean, Brighton area (oh my god, say I still have a stake in those places - I wont even want Glen as a minion, have to have something a bit classier). Im so excited, Ive got 20 odd pages of stuff this chap has sent me and its all so brilliant sourced and fantastic. Hey Glen, the Verralls also seem to have own a brewery down there. Im going to have to put this stuff away now because OH due any second and he will shoot me if Im still on this. Ive got days and days of stuff to read through. Im actually shaking a bit - its like a huge christmas pressie.

Kate, I don't think you are contradicting 9though maybe I should have worded my original post a bit more loosely!!!!! Not all cases are the same, I suppose, but alias is sometimes used to do with copyhold tenure: Part of an example from TNA: It may be important to have in mind what was intended to be understood by 'alias' when it was written in the parish register for the 'Featherstone alias Blackmore' entries. It is the Latin derivation which is likely to have been in the minds of the clergymen of the Church of England who made the entries in the register, for in the relevant period they were all trained in the Classics. The Latin meaning of 'alias' is 'at another time or place'. The Macquarie Dictionary has: alias , adv., n., pl. aliases. -adv. 1. at another in another place; in other circumstances; otherwise. 'Simpson alias Smith' means a person calling himself at one time or one place 'Smith', at another 'Simpson'. -n. 2. assumed. name; another name. [L: at another time or place]. [See also The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology.] So the first occurrence of which we are aware, at the baptism of four children of 'John Featherstone als Blackmore' at Wiveliscombe in 1712 meant literally that their father John, now known as John Featherstone, had been known previously at Wiveliscombe or at another place as John Blackmore. However, that would apply strictly only to the first generation in which the alias was used, because for legal reasons an alias might be passed on from one generation to another, and sometimes that was done for as long as a hundred years. An alias might have been retained in order to preserve property rights where property had been held on the ancient copyholder type of tenure which was less secure than freehold ......the established Church record alone would have had legal force at that time. Merry