Genealogy Chat

see latest postings.

The background. I have a family tree created by husband's mother's cousin Eileen. Husband's gt grandfather is CHARLES ALBERT CARTER. Eileen said he was born 13 Jan 1866 at Valentine Place, Blackfriars Road Southwark. Don't know where she got the address from and she is now dead. 13 Jan is the date husband's mother had for her Grandpa Carter in her birthday book. Eileen made a note that Charles Albert Carter applied for his birth cert in 1936 and the GRO couldn't find it. I asked GR folk to help me locate Charles' parents James and Elizabeth Carter in 1861 as possibly their address then might locate birth cert (Charles has Southwark as birthplace on some census and Islington and Bow on others, haha). Fiona found family 1861 in Southwark at 5 Wellington Place. All the first names and ages and places of birth fit with other info from censuses & Eileen's tree EXCEPT that the surname is not CARTER, but McCARTHY. Clinching detail is that one of the sons, Richard is blind - Eileen states this on her tree, info from her father, one of the younger Carter sons. Richard is in a school for the blind on a later census, still as McCarthy, but by 1871 rest of family including CHARLES ALBERT are Carter. Got birth cert today - hurrah - it says Charles Albert born 13 January 1866 5 Wellington place, St Geo. Southwark. Mother Elizabeth Alice McCarthy, formerly Goodwin [Eileen has Goodwin as maiden name on her father's cert] father's occupation: cooper, again born out by census info FATHER'S NAME; DENNIS MCCARTHY. Help! Every other census and Eileen's tree has him as James! nell

Just found Dennis McCarthy marriage to Elizabeth Alice Goodwin in Holborn 1848. This fits in with birth of eldest Carter Emily in 1849. James Carter sometimes gives birthplace as Holborn on censuses. ??????????

Sorry, I am getting hysterical! The question is: why did Dennis McCarthy change his name to James Carter? I'd previously assumed the family had just changed their surname, possibly to avoid being thought to be Irish. Suggestions?

Hi Nell, Is it possible that Dennis McCarthy died, and she re-married to James Carter? There are several deaths in London between 1861-1871, when was he born? Debbie

But why would he marry as Dennis McCarthy and have that as his name on son's birth cert n 1866 and in between call himself James McCarthy on the 1861 census? And if he died and Elizabeth remarried, why would all her children born before his death change from McCarthy to Carter? Both Dennis McCarthy and James Carter were coopers and both born in 1830 in Holborn/Clerkenwell area, which I think suggests they are the same person. But thanks for your suggestion, I will look for a 2nd marriage between Elizabeth McCarthy and James Carter. nell

Sorry, but all that info isn't in your original message. Charles Carter born 1866 father, then James McCarthy in 1871. Now you say his name was McCarthy in 1861? Debbie

Sorry. To clarify: 1848 marriage between Dennis McCarthy and Elizabeth Alice Goodwin in Holborn 1851 in Clerkenwell James McCarthy 23 cooper b. Marylebone Elizabeth 23 b Long Acre Emily Alice 2 b Clerkenwell William, 1, b Clerkenwell 1861 in Southwark James McCarthy 31 cooper b Clerkenwell Elizabeth wife 31 b Clerkenwell Emily daur. 12, b Clerkenwell William 11 b St Andrews Richard 9 b Clerkenwell Blind. Eliza 7 b Clerkenwell James 4 b Clerkenwell Mary A. 2 b Southwark 1866 - same address in Southwark Charles Albert McCarthy born, parents Dennis McCarthy & Elizabeth Alice McCarthy, formerly Goodwin 1871 - Mile End Old Town James Carter 40 cooper b Holborn Elizabeth 40 Holborn William 21 Holborn Eliza 17 Clerkenwell James 14 Clerkenwell Mary A. 11 Southwark Charles 5 Southwark Henry 2 Southwark Alfred 8 months Mile End Old Town 1881 - Poplar James CARTER Head M Male 51 Holborn cooper , Middlesex, England Cooper Elizabeth CARTER Wife M Female 51 Long Acre, Middlesex, England William CARTER Son U Male 31 Holborn, Middlesex, England French Polisher Richard CARTER Son U Male 29 Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England Henry CARTER Son U Male 17 Bow, Surrey, England Carman Charles CARTER Son Male 15 Bow, Surrey, England Van Boy Edward CARTER Son Male 8 Islington, Middlesex, England Scholar Charles GOODWIN Boarder W Male 55 Long Acre, Middlesex, England French Polisher 1891 Shoreditch James Carter b. 1830 Clerkenwell cooper Elizabeth Carter ' ' nell

Nell - perhaps his real name was Dennis but he was known as James? Census entries usually show the name somebody was known by while certificates show their official names. As for the surname change, I don't have any new suggestions. Kate.

I would be very interested to know if Dennis and James turn out to be the same man. I have been searching for my Ellen Leary born Poplar in 1841 census for ages and the only one I have found the right age is with father Dennis. Trouble is on her marriage her father is James. I have too been wondering if Dennis and James could possibly be interchangable although I can't imagine why. Lyla

Kate Thanks for your input. Husband has suggested Dennis was his proper name and that's on his marriage cert and also the Charles Albert birth cert as birth informed by wife who would use correct name. But perhaps he liked or was known familiarly as James, gave that name to census enumerator, and kept it when he changed his surname. As to why - that's the big question. Lyla Ooeer! Off to do research into origin of James and Dennis names now! nell

I have found this too. Aaron in my tree is also known as James on census!!

What is it with James?????!!!!!

Hi Nell I did wonder at first if it was a transcription error as Dennis and James are the same length and could possibly look similar in old handwriting but you have Dennis on two documents so that idea seems unlikely. Would it help to get a birth cert for one of the younger children to see what father's name is given?? Just to keep you company though, I have a Mary who marries a Henry who is Edward on census records. They named a son Henry! I'd seen this Edward and Mary several times and discounted them until I found Mary's illegitimate children living with them on an earlier census. Heather

Hi Nell, I had something like that. A family of Sessions - all certificates, birth and marriage show surname Sessions 1871 and 1881 census show sessions. Eldest Daughter - my great grandmother shows Sessions on marriage cert. Entire family disappear after 1881. Then lo and behold they turn up as another name. Father died, mum I assume remarried but as yet cannot track a marriage cert ! and on all subsequent census's the enumerator put all children under 2nd husbands name. So the remarriage thing is possible. I am suprised at how many if mine remarried so quickly after a spouse had died and there was always a link somewhere in the background to the new spouse. Also had family members chage their names - I assume it's because they did not like their 1st name. This with an incorrect place of birth made one member difficult to trace. This is what makes it all so intriguing. If it was plain sailing all the time I for one would get a little bored. It is far more exciting when you track down that elusive relly and then discover an entire arm of new rellies! Good luck Helen

Just thought I would mention that I have an Isaac John Raymond in our family who was listed as James Raymond on the 1881 Census. Wonder if the Enumerators were given instructions that if they were not certain of a gentleman's name to just put it down as James???? Good luck with your research. Kind regards Linda

Nell Was the name Dennis very common back then? It seems an unlikely name. Heather

Hi Nell, Would have been here earlier but I've not long got up.......only 7am here. Got your PM before I saw this thread. Now I don't know too much about about Catholics and back them may be different than it is now but I think when they take their first communion aren't they given another name? My husbands Catholic will ask him when he wakes up but I'm sure I remember him saying that his dads middle name was given to him when his was confirmed..........Maybe Dennis McCarthy was given James and he liked it better. Fiona.

Perhaps Dennis was named after his father, but used a different name to avoid confusion? Or maybe he just hated it. You don't mention Dennis having an official middle name, so perhaps he plucked James out of the air because he liked it. I notice he gave one of his sons the name 'James', but he didn't call any of them Dennis.

I think a lot of people changed their names a lot in the 1800's, for whatever reason. My grandfather was called John George Anderson, born 1870, father George Anderson, mother Mary Ann. On the 1871 census the family are called Humble, and also in 1871 my grandfather was baptised John George Humble, but was always known as John George Anderson. We have a letter that my grandfather received from the vicar of the church where he was baptised when he was trying to prove his age for a pension, saying 'yes Mr. Anderson, your baptism is in our records as John George Humble', we'll send you a copy'. I would love to know what my grandfather had put in his letter to the vicar, explaining why a Mr. Anderson wanted his baptism certificate that was in a different name. I just think that maybe they had done 'a moonlight flit' leaving debts or something like that as my grandfather's father's occupation in that 1871 census was 'unemployed painter'. It's a mystery I don't think I will ever get an answer too, and maybe it will be the same for you unfortunately. Kath. x