Genealogy Chat

I have a marriage certificate for Mary Ann Flower. She married Charles Arthur Strange October 19th, 1885 at 'The Parish Church' in the Parish of 'Emmanuel Maida Hill' County of Middlesex. Certificate states Mary Ann was 18 Father was George Frederick Flower Omminibus Driver Deceased. I would like to buy Mary Ann's birth certificate but can no trace of them on the cencus' to verify which Mary Ann she could be. Would the parish records for that church give more details? And does anyone know if they exist. Thanks PS I have them on 1891/1901 cencus Also know that Charles died in 1895 and she remarried

Hi Yvonne You would probably get the same info from the parish register as you would on the marriage cert. On the census entries you have found are the birthplaces she gives the same? That would be the parish to look for the birth entry. Jeanette x

Hi Jeanette She says on the census she was born in Marylebone but I don't think that's true because I can't find a birth for her in Marylebone.

Jeannette Sorry to bother you again but I haven't started ordering death certificates yet. What information do they give? e.g. birth information if married twice would it say nee - nee? Reason I ask that is I have found a death recorded in 1909 which may be her, was wondering if it would just say present name meaning married surname or maiden name also. If it had maiden name also then I would be able to confirm this was her. Thanks Yvonne

Well, I cant even find the marriage you describe online in FreeBMD ! Searched for Mr Strange as well as Ms Flower - none for her that make sense, and the only one for him Dec 1886, Fulham. The parish you show does not come up in ParLoc - which normally is bulletproof. I'd hazard a guess it was in Maida Vale tho ... Anyway, theres also something odd about George, the Dad - there are 3 Georges associated with Marlebone in the 1871 and 1881, but none with a daur Mary Ann. The closest I could get to her on age was this young lady in 1881 (1871 nothing) 1881 England Census Viewing records 1-9 of 9 matches « Global Search Results Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Residence View Image Save This Charles Flower abt 1881 Kensington Son Kentington Emma E. Flower abt 1868 Paddington Daughter Kentington Frederick Flower abt 1877 Kensington Son Kentington Louisa A. Flower abt 1871 Kensington Daughter Kentington Sarah Flower abt 1840 Hackney Wife Kentington Sarah A. Flower abt 1869 Kensington Daughter Kentington ->Sophia F. Flower abt 1865 Marylebone Daughter Kentington William Flower abt 1840 St Pancras Head Kentington William H. Flower abt 1866 Paddington Son Kentington

Hi Laird They are driving me potty. With the help of Tracy from Teeside I managed to find Charles on census 1881/1871 and his father on 1861 I had been searching for weeks charles had used his middle name and fater had used his middle name. Drawn a blank on George Frederick Flower I have cross checked for a Mary Ann and although there are two (have them printed off somewhere) they are in a completly different part of the country and dates do not correspond at all. The marriage of Mary Ann and Charles is here and i have now got marriage cert which is how I knew names of fathers. Name: FLOWER, Mary Ann Record Type: Marriages Quarter: December Year: 1885 District: Marylebone (1837-1901) County: London Middlesex Volume: 1a But the Birth and parents of her are driving me potty. Nevertheless thank you for trying much appreciated

This is the ONLY birth in 1864-1870 in the overall area.... worth £7 ? Surname Forenames District Page No Event Quarter Year ------------------------------------------------------------------- Flower Mary Ann Lambeth. 1d 289 Birth Q1 1869 It would make her only 16/17 at marriage tho ! I guess the marriage just isnt on FreeBMD - glad you got it, tho it means that she and dad George F are both mistranscribed on 1871 and 1881 ..... and look - must be a grandad - or the immaculate conception ... Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page ----------------------------------------------------------- Deaths Mar 1859 FLOWER George Frederick Marylebone 1a 324 Deaths Mar 1877 FLOWER Mary Ann 79 Marylebone 1a 420 Deaths Jun 1879 Flower Ann 70 Marylebone 1a 380 Flower Mary Ann _8 Marylebone 1a 385 (the latter are proof of 1871/81 mistrans .....)

Laird Am going to order it right now. I will let you know if its the right one just to satisfy our curiosity. Speak to you in about 3 weeks LOL

First I have to say that if you cannot find the birth on FreeBMD/Ancestry it is not surprising as their transcriptions are few and far between up to 1869 for births and to 1865 for marriages - If you cant find an entry on one of those two sites then you should look at the Information page on FreeBMD to make sure that the chances of the entry not showing is due to non-transcription and not down to the fact that the birth didnt happen. I would say that depending on census entries is also fraught with problems as the entry may have been mis-written by the enumerator or the person of the household giving the information gave whatever information he/she knew which could also be misleading. However your Father Flower had a name and occupation and some store should be set by these facts when trying to align the details on the birth certificate with those on the marriage cert and also gives you a reference point on which the birth cert may be verified. As far as Mary Ann is concerned it may be supposed that she gave the information to the cleric at the marriage that she was 18 years of age - or maybe her father did - in which case it can be supposed that she was born at some time up to 19 Oct 1867. MARY ANN FLOWER - Births (1837online) 1867 3rd qtr registered Windsor 2c 399 1867 2nd qtr registered Bingham 7b 343 1867 2nd qtr registered Worksop 7b 28 1868 2nd qtr registered Clifton 6a 153 1868 2nd qtr registered Clifton 6a 142 MARY A FLOWER 1866 4th qtr registered Basford 7b 139 1866 4th qtr registered Farnbro 2a 100 Frankly I would put my money on Windsor - but then I have never won anything in my life ! Good Luck.

Hi Joseph, What you say is quite right I have checked Free BMD and 1868 is less than 50% transcribed. So looks like another certificate to buy this time Windsor. I would like to thank you all for your efforts and I will let you know how I get on.

Yvonne, why not give the Windsor registrar a phone call befoire spending £££ on a cert that may not be correct, the registrars are generally very helpful and you may be able to get an immediate reply if you ask if the father is as you wish - the name of the mother may not be given to you, after all they gotta make their money somewhere ! 01628 796 422 if the records are correct !

That's Brilliant! Thanks Joseoh I certainly will. I would never have thought of that

good thinking - but the Mary Ann born Windsor shows up in S.London in 1871 - father William Henry. by the way, on census searches I've been using wildcards - FLO* - and theres a few whose name is actually FlowerS .... No sign of a George or a Fred in Windsor either. Stiil worth following that good advice and phoning the registrar..... pity you cant do that with the relevant London LRO, but the word now is they 'refer' you to the GRO site ....

Yvette Sorry I wasn't around to answer yor query _ went out for lunch! - but it looks like Laird and Joseph have done you proud. Jeanette x

Hi All I've been doing the same thing Laird found all sorts of variations flours - flowe - flowens etc., It's really driving me mad. I just feel she probably said marylebone because her husband to be said he was born there. On the marriage cert it also says they were both living at 120 Carlisle Street. This was not his parents address in 1881 census, but they could have moved as they have lived at different addresses on 1871/1861. I even tried looking at the census for the witnesses to see if they were any relation namely Elizabeth Rothwell and Mary Ann Radley. Charles or Arthur as he was known did have a sister Mary Ann Age 15 in 1861. I just don't know what to look for next. I will phone tomorrow but I have seen the Windsor Mary Ann on the census with her father William. Anyway a big thanks to you both Hope you enjoyed your lunch Jeanette! Aren't I sad still on my 'Strange' little family on a glorious day like today? I hope I eventually get to the bottom of this

Yvonne Not sad, just addicted like the rest of us! lol. Yes I did enjoy my lunch thankyou. Won't be able to eat for a week! lol. And sorry for calling you Yvette - slip of the keyboard! lol Jeanette x