Genealogy Chat

There's probably a straight-forward answer to this that I just can't see but never had a NOT BORN IN COUNTY as yet and would appreciate some opinions and ideas of how other people have approached it.....see below!

1841 census living Haughton, Lancashire – Thomas (35) and Ann (30) Hill with Mary 15, Benjamin 10, Betty 10, Esther 5. I assume the ages have been rounded cos they’re very ‘neat’ and Benjamin and Betty are not twins! All NOT born in county. By 1851, Ann has died and Thomas is 46. Benjamin is 20, Betty has become Elizabeth and is 17, Esther 13 and they also have Joseph aged 10. All state their birthplace as Haughton, LANCASHIRE. I then have Benjamin on the 61, 71, 81 and 91, birthplace given as either Haughton or Dukinfield, Lancashire. I can’t find baptisms for any of the children. The two that were born post civil reg, there are lots to choose from and I’m not even sure where I’m looking for them. I can’t find a marriage between Thomas and Ann. My only ‘lead’ so far is a baptism on BVRI for a Benjamin Hill, parents Thomas and Ann, 30th September 1832 in Mottram in Longdendale, Cheshire, which is only about 4 or 5 miles from Haughton, but the baptism doesn’t appear on IGI and there are no baptisms that fit for the other children in a similar area with the right parents. So were they born in Lancashire or not? What do I do next to locate these people? Suggestions appreciated! Thanks Lou

Lou I don't think there is a straightforward answer, and it is particularly confusing because they all say Not born in county in 1841, yet by 1851 they are all born in county. You have searched the baptism registers without success, ditto marriage registers. I don't know what you can do next. I do know that I have an ancestor in 1841 Cambridge whose parents are called Daniel & Mary Moore. They are on the census as 'not born in county'. Don't know where they were born, but there are two Daniel & Mary Moores in different Norfolk villages. Is it either or neither of them? This is why I am sticking with the post 1837 lot! nell

Nell Thank you, its good to know there wasn't something staring me in the face that I was just totally oblivious to. The other thing that struck me as strange was that Benjamin married in 1856 in Stockport, although he states his residence at the time as Dukinfield and he lived in Dukinfield from that point till his death in 1898. I think a hunt through the PR's at Stockport might be a useful exercise. So far I've searched the PR's for 'here' (as in Ashton under Lyne, Dukinfield, Hyde, Haughton etc) and there is nothing that fits. I've done an ALL COUNTIES search under all the names for baptisms and marriages on both BVRI and IGI (I know that neither are complete but coverage for 'here' is pretty good on IGI) and they don't appear to be listed. Christopher I see what you are saying but the ages are rounded up for the 1841 census. Mary could have been 11 or 12 but rounded up to 15. And the mother being 15 isn't that impossible. My paternal ggrandmother was 13 when her first child was born, she married the father at the age of 15. The OTHER possibility, of course, is that Ann was Thomas's 2nd wife and maybe NOT the mother of the elder 2 children And the 1841 census doesn't give a relationship to the Head of the House so Mary might not even be a daughter Lou

Could this just be a simple matter of county borders moving? The places you mention are I think near to Lancs/Ches/Derbys borders and perhaps these changed between each census?

Hi Helen The place they state as their birthplace in 1851 is the place they are living in 1841 when they are classed as not born in county so not sure this is anything to do with the boundaries. Haughton is firmly in Lancashire and always has been but parts of it border onto towns and villages that are classed as Stockport. I think there's a Stockport connection given that Benjamin married there! Lou

There aren't any definitive answers to this. Things to consider are: 1. Who was the enumerator. Was he a local or an outsider? 2. Although adult ages are rounded down to the nearest five years, children under (I think) 15 were supposed o be exact ages, which suggests the enumerator had not read his remit properly. 3. Are they the only family on the page not born in the county? 4. Are there any families where some people are born in the county and others out? My personal best 1841 errors in a single family are: wrong christian name for father, birthplace Y for entire family when it should be N for children, correct children's names but the order of each in the family incorrect. Couple that with the mother dying and father remarrying, so BOTH parents' names are other than expected and you will understand why I doubted that I had found the correct family and have no great opinion of some of the early enumerators. Brenda

Thanks Brenda Points well worth considering and I'll have a 2nd look at the disc and see whether there are any clues on the page. About the only thing I CAN be certain of with this one is that the father matches the one Benjamin names on his marriage certificate. Excuse my ignorance, but how can you tell whether the enumerator was local or not or can't you? Lou

I don't think you can tell, it just has the enumerators name on the front pages of the section. At least you have counties to look at, I have come to a halt with my most central direct line ancestor. I have him back to 1841, but on every census after that he declares he was 'born at sea'. How am I supposed to find someone who was born at sea in 1802? Good job I still have lots of other branches to go at. Linda.

Lou, wild shot in the dark here, but could it be anything to do with settlement orders. I mean would these people have got a settlement cert for the area and wanted to emphasise that on the census?

In the tiny Norfolk village that many of my ancestors came from, the enumerator is living in the village and readily identifiable. The one in 1851 was a land agent, born in Scotland. In 1861 it was a local man, who entirely illegally, gave a copy to the local vicar. If the enumerator is a John Smith, you might not recognise him, but a more unusual name might well be spotted.

Let's get this straight - ages were NEVER (officially) rounded UP on censuses. On the 1841 (only) Ages 14 and under were supposed to be correct age. Age 15 means 15-19 years Age 20 means 20-24 years Age 25 means 25-29 years etc If anyone wishes to see the instructions to enumerators on this subject, send me your e-mail address.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions I'm still not sure where to go from here but I WILL have a ferret through the Stockport PR's looking for clues and will try and find at least one of the birth certs for the children born after 1837. Maybe having Ann's maiden name will help, maybe not, but it'll be another piece of the jigsaw and may help me to at least hunt down a marriage Lou

modern developments didn't pay much heed to ancient boundaries, which were often peculiar, so a place that felt like part of one township might be technically over the boundary in a different township. Enumerators were generally informed about such things, many had done parish rate-collecting, the most obvious qualification for the job. In 1841 the enumerators went round with the book asking questions. It's likely your family named a location that the enumerator knew to be outside Lancashire. They obviously didn't say Haughton In later years, householders filled in forms and the enumerators were supposed to copy these into the books without correcting them. The man who copied 'Dukinfield Lancs' almost certainly knew that Dukinfield was in Cheshire, but he copied it anyway. In fact Dukinfield was a township in Stockport parish, so the marriage isn't a problem. This was an area with few parish churches, serving large parishes with huge populations. As for Mottram, people didn't always have christenings at home, the wife's parents' place was a popular choice (often the same place where the couple married). Did the Mottram Thomas and Ann marry at Mottram? That probably still won't tell you if they're yours or not. Did they baptise any more children at Mottram? If they aren't yours, it's likely that they did. If you can find siblings for Mottram-Benjamin that aren't yours, that will at least tell you this possible lead is a dud

Hi Robin No, the marriage for Thomas and Ann I found was in Audlem, Cheshire, which is near Nantwich. Benjamin is the only child listed baptised at Mottram. Dukinfield is a weird one cos although the postal address now is Cheshire, it comes under the Ashton under Lyne registration district which is Lancashire. Lou