Genealogy Chat

I am very stuck with my grandfather Thomas PALMER struggling to find him on 1981/1991 and 1901 censuses. He was married in August 1901 and his occupation is given as CARMAN and I'm hoping knowing what this was might help me. Thanks.

A horse and cart man, often employed in delivering parcels etc from railway stations.

If you google search for occupation carman you will find the following ' ... The term was used in 17c New York where carmen had specified responsibilities for maintaining roads. A carman was a delivery driver usually working for an employer. Could possibly be self-employed doing general haulage with his own horse and covered cart or wagon but these were mostly called 'carriers'. The Worshipful Company of Carmen was formed in 1516, to have the monopoly of plying for hire as carriers in the City. The Company would licence the vehicles, arrange where vehicles could stand awaiting custom and decide the rates to be charged. The livery colours are white and red, and a history of the Company (The Worshipful Company of Carmen by Eric Bennett, 1952) Records surviving at the Guildhall Library run from the 1660s to the late 20th century - the Court Minutes are the longest run, and some of the other records only cover very limited periods - lists of Freemen are only available up to the 18th Century, for example. In later time, a person may describe himself as a Carman, when he means that this is his trade, but if he is an employee within a large firm is most likely not to be a member of the Livery Company. The use of Carman (Master), or Master Carman probably indicates that the person is the proprietor of a firm of carriers, who may, therefore, (but not necessarily) be a member of the Livery Company. Records The Worshipful Company of Carman website with some historical information Link at http://www*.*thecarmen*.*co*.*uk'. Hope this helps. :-) Joy

As per Geoff's reply, I have a few 'Carman' in my tree and they were horse and cart owners.

PS My great-Grandad was a carman in 1901, and he drove a cab, with horse :-) Joy

Many thanks everyone. I'm particularly interested in the parcels from Railway bit. In the 1901 census Thomas Palmer's wife to be's parents were living on their own and his future father in law was, in 1881 census an Engine Driver although by 1901 census he is a stoker. Thomas Palmer's marriage cert in Aug 1901 shows both he and his finance living at her parents address and he is a Carman. Now I may be putting 2+2 tog and coming up with 5 but I can't help wondering if future dad in law got him a job and put them both up until they got sorted. Do you think I'm in cloud cuckoo land or does this all sound feasable? I do know that Thomas Palmer eventually became a Coal Merchant so this may be how he got started. One last question please: If he owned a horse and cart would this indicate a degree of wealth to buy this?

Hi On my husband's tree we have several generations of carmen. They all worked at the East India Docks, London and were connected with loading/offloading ships with coal. Family lore says they worked with horses. Steph

I to have family ancestors who were shown as carman on the census details. Now I know what this means. I have a picture of my gt grandfather with a horse and cart. My grandfather was crippled and the story is that he was run over by a horse. Maybe this story makes more sense now. Glad you asked the question.