Genealogy Chat

Got fed up with my research and was doing a bit of light reading, about murders for the insurance money. To my astonishment, I realised that one of the murderer's mentioned in this book MUST have been known to my Grandfather. They lived in the same small town, were the same age, went to the same school, joined the same TA regiment as Officers, both joined the same reg as Lieutenants. After the war(WW!) both were members of the same Cricket Club. In addition, the woman who was murdered, supposedly for the Insurance, had a maiden name which frequently appears in my family. I would very much like to get hold of this man's military record to see if it gives the name and address of his parents - who, I believe, are the mysterious people noted by my late father as "Uncle and Auntie?" As this man was hung in 1920, do you think his records will be "secret" and as I am not a proven relative (yet) will I be able to get a copy? I do not know his service number. Grateful for any thoughts before I tackle the PRO site!

I am not shore about army records but I think you have to be related or get relative ok. but have you tryed looking up the crime you could try www.oldbaileyonlinr.*org or www.murderfile.*net remove*

Thanks Peter I already know that my man was hung at Strangways, he's not on that site, but I will try the sites you suggested anyway. Otherwise I will have to think of a way I could definitely be related to this man - ahem! - in order to get at his records. It is interesting to note that this man would almost certainly not have been found guilty of murder today, there was a scandalous with-holding of evidence which would today result in a top-level enquiry.

Hi Marjorie I only have experience of Royal Navy records, so I don't know if this applies to the other Forces. After contacting the relevant department, I was sent a form to complete. I had to make a declaration that I was the next of kin (living obviously!) or, if I wasn't, to obtain a signed statement from that next of kin allowing the records to be released. As it turned out, when I emailed my newly-discovered uncle in South Africa to get his permission as my late grandfather's next of kin, he already had the papers and emailed them to me, kindly saving me a long wait and £25! So I was very lucky. Hope this helps a bit, contact me if you want RN archive address etc. Mandy :)

If he was born prior to 1901, and I think he must be as he was hanged in 1920 and had already had a military career, cant you find his parents name on the census? What was his name and the town they lived in.

Heather Durh! Now why didnt I think of that?! His name was Frederick Rothwell Holt, always known as Eric. He was born/lived Lytham St Anne's in Lancashire born c 1889. He was hung at Strangways Prison Manchester on 14 April 1920. I don't have access to the 1891, 1901 - anyone fancy a challenge?

Its ok, marjorie, its called "Senior Genes Moments" I get them a lot lately when Ive been on here for hours at a time. Cant see the wood for the trees.

Thanks Jill I have eed you. Marjorie

If you hav'nt found him yet hes in Murder File, add to the above web site /names/frholt.htm theres a pic of him and victim. also find story on www.stephen-straford.*co.*uk/shell_shocked.htm on another site I found that he also appeled saying he had syphalus and it had sent him mad.

Thanks for that Peter - but it can't be a relly of mine then, cos no-one in MY family would ever have anything as common as Syphilis! Tee hee. I have now seen several differing accounts of this case. True, he was treated for syphilis during WW1. However in the first account I read, Frederick made no effort to avoid his fate and it was left to the Defence Team to come up with something to convince the Jury of his insanity. Holt certainly behaved in a bizarre and eccentric way during the trial but if he were feigning insanity, he could have come up with a lot better than he did. Also, syphilis if untreated, sends you insane, but this takes many many years to manifest itself and they knew that even then. What was not brought out at the trial was the fact that his Grandfather and a cousin had both died insane. Personally, I don't think he was suffering from insanity but I do think he was suffering from the after-effects of the war. He appears to have been a happy-go-lucky type and the war was just too much for him. It says in the book I read that he simply gave up the pretence of being an adult who could deal with the world and went almost happily to the gallows and the death that he must have felt he cheated during the war. Thanks again!