Genealogy Chat

Brenda Sorry it's so long, but wanted to put it all down so people knew what i was trying to say This is What I have 1860 birth Hazzell 1861 census Hazzell 1871 census Barrett 1881 census Barrett 1882 Marr cert Hazzell ( she also signed this looks like Worrell) 1883 Son's birth Barrett 1885 onwards on other childrens birth cert Hazzell Seems to change back and forwards at whim

Brain aching. How many times do they call themselves Barrett, and where? If it is only on censuses, or other copied documents, then I'd suspect that whoever wrote Hazzell down was convinced they'd made a mistake and altered it. I'd only believe a surname if the people are literate and sign their names. There is the possibility of an alias, but as everyone else is saying, the two names are so similar when written. B

Thank you Crista, I think I just wanted someone else to say it LOL. The Coulby's and the Barrett/hazzells lived really near each other in 61 and 71 so it looking too much of coincidence not to be them. The lovely lady from Tower Hamlet reg office phoned today and has confirmed all the births except for William's are registered to Thomas Coulby and Elizabeth Hazzell, only William is registered to Elizabeth Barrett. But although she didn't tell me the exact addresses at teh time of registrations, when i mentioned the address from census/electrol roll she confirmed they was the same. And William is certainly with them in census Thanks again Crista, I have made a connection with another member on this line, so will put all finding to her and let her decide!!!

Shelli, I'd go for it. Crista

Am sorry to push this to the top again but i really would appricatet more opinions on whether ELizabeth BARREETT/ HAZZELL are one and the same person?

Have ahd phone call from Tower Hamlets, The lady there has looked at the three births following Williams and they are all registereed to Thomas Coulby and Elizabeth Hazzell. She said she will try andn look at the rest tomorrow as she had REAL work to do todayLOL

Crista, thanks for taking the time to help, Yes i have a copy from Parish records of the mariage certificate as well as having a copy from GRO. Both clearly state Hazzell. I have spoken to Tower Hamlets reg office, and the very nice lady there has also looked at her register, Both the marriage cert and the birth cert are correct, That is birth- Barrett Marr- Hazzell, on the marriage cert Elizabeth only states Christchurch District, which is the parish of the church they married in. While William states St George in the East, a neighbouring parish. The other bit that TH reg office pointed out was, on the marriage cert Elizabeth signs her name although it looks more like Worrell!!! while on the birth just over a yr later she only makes her mark. ON William 1883 birth they give Richard St as place of birth, which is in the Christchurch district. And all the baptisms I have found are also in Christchurch. I did ask to see the rolls for 1882/3, but they are at present unfit for veiwing. They are due to be filmed with a month or so. The birth you state for Elizabeth Hazzell, in 1860 I have a copy, the address is 2 Mariners buildings, which ties in with the census info. Also in 1871 theres 2 lodgers living with the family, one of these is a Mary Sexton, on the 1860 birth Elizabeths' mother maiden name is Sexton. So in 1871 when the call themselves Barrett they are again showing a link wth Hazzell??? OR am i hoping too much??? And if Mary Sexton is a relative would she not be listed as such?? You see I'd convinced myself this was one person with two surnames for whatever reason. SO I ordered the certifcates, but then I started to doubt myself, so wondered what others made of it. I just really don't want to continue with this line until I'm postive it is correct.

Hi Shelli, Looked at the 1891 image and it looks as follows: 1891 St George in the East Buross St T W Coulby 31 William 7 Elizabeth 5 Ellen 1 Florence 3mths I'm sure it's a T and not a J, plus William's age is 7 and Elizabeth's is 5. That fits in better with the 1901 census. Here's the marriage from FreeBMD. Marriages Sep 1882 Coalby Thomas William St Geo East 1c 740 Coulby Thomas William St Geo East 1c 740 Hazzell Elizabeth St Geo East 1c 740 Have you seen the marriage in the parish records? What's Elizabeth's address on the marriage cert? Does it match the 1881 census address? This looks like Elizabeth's birth: Births Dec 1860 HAZZELL Elizabeth Rotherhithe 1d 525 Crista

Does anyone else have any thoughts???

Ruth Good point about checking for Barretts in 1861 and Hazzells in 1871, i can check 71 easier so will start there. I have the 61 on disc but have to trawl as i have no index :-((( Althought how liekly is it to get two familes with same kids and same ages, but I will check just to rule it out LOL thanks everyone Shelli xx

I have copies of the census and it definately says Barrett and Hazzell, I culdn't read the 1883 birth census but Tower Hamlets reg office checked the orginal, she said it was very clearly Barrett. They also pointed out to me that on the birth cert Elizabeth didn't sing her name only placed her mark, but on the marriage cert she signed. So are they one and the same, if yes why sign in 1882 and mark in 1883??????

I agree with Nell. It would be too much of a coincidence between the census of 1861 and 1871 for them not to be the same family. Sue xx

hmmmmm. I think it would be easier if they were called Smith lol will talk to you about this

Regarding Barratt and Hazzell, I think this would be a straighforward misreading - capital B and H can look alike, double rr could be read as double zz, uncrossed tt would be ll. nell

Right my problem is as follows….. Certificate Info… Edwin Joseph Thomas Coulby born 13 January 1913 Mile End London. To Parents William Lawrence Coulby Stoker( Royal navy) and Ellen Jane Coulby formerly Mills. This leads me to their Marriage cert……. August 1st 1909 Stepney London. Ellen Jane Mills 27 spinster etc( won’t give all details as not relevant) William Lawrance Coulby 26 Bachelor sailor father William Coulby Labourer. Right so far straight forward yes???? It is the Coulby line I’m confused with so, next is William Lawrence’s birth cert…..(this is where my problems starts) William Lawrence Coulby 4 October 1883 St George In The East Parents… William Coulby Dock Labourer Elizabeth Coulby formerly Barrett (couldn’t read the name but Tower Hamlets reg office have kindly confirmed it ) So it should be the case of finding a marriage cert for William Snr and Elizabeth?? WRONG………. I can only find a certificate for Thomas William Coulby I thought maybe he had used his second name not an uncommon thing. So I requested it but only if he’s marrying Elizabeth. Back comes the cert as follows…. August 27 1882 Christchurch (which is St George in the East) Thomas William Coulby 22 bachelor Labourer father John Dec’d Elizabeth Hazzell 21 spinster father James Is it the right cert?????? Am I on the right track???? I searched for the Baptism records for the children and found the following. All in Christchurch….And the vicar kindly put the DOB in margin John James born 10/11/1887 bapt 04/12/01887 Ellen born 21/07/1889 bapt 09/08/1889 Florence Emily born 07/01/1891 bapt 04/02/1891 Margaret Mary born 05/08/1892 bapt 02/09/1892 John is registered to William & Elizabeth Lwr Fluton St The others all registered to Thomas William & Elizabeth 27 Buross St From census info I know there is at least another three children, William I have his birth cert. Elizabeth c 1885 Thomas c1895 I have found entries on the index for all 7 children and also one for John Edmund Mar 1898 Unfortunately I also found death entries for the two Johns, although John Edmund is John Edwin at death. These are the only Coulby’s born in St George in the East. I can not understand why some children were baptised about a month after birth, but the others seemingly weren’t??? This is all happening in the same church. No other Coulby’s in register. Census info 1901 William Lawerance (Jnr) is away on a ship sp that ties in with his marrage cert and his son’s birth. The rest of the family are at home in Stepney ..Joesph Street Thomas W Coulby 39 Rotherhithe Elizabeth 38 Rotherhithe Elizabeth 15 St George Ellen 11 “ Florence E 10 " Margaret 8 " Thomas 6 " 1891 St George in the East Buross St J W Coulby 31 Rotherhithe (Could be TW??) Elizabeth 30 “” William 11 St George Elizabeth 8 “ Ellen 1 “ Florence 3mths “ 1881 No sign of Thomas William Couilby 1881 Rotherhithe 5 mariner buildings James Barrett head wid 62 general labourer Lincs Elizabeth Barrett dau 20 domestic servant out employ Rotherhithe 1871 Rotherhithe Acorn Place John Coulby 39 widow born Claypole Lincs Thomas W 11 born Rotherhithe I think this is my man with his dad John. They are lodgers. The ages add up, just about in the census and certificate information, to make me think I have the right family. 1871 Rotherhithe 2 mariner buildings James Barrett H 52 lab labour Lincs ???beck Susan Barrett W 48 Norfolk Lynn William son 18 lab “ ‘’ Frances Dau 14 Scholar Surrey Rotherhithe Elizabeth dau 10 “ " “ Plus 2 lodgers 1861 Rotherhithe 5 mariner buildings James Hazzell H 42 Lab Timber yard Norfolk ??? lynn Susannah W 37 “ “ John Son ?? “ “ William son 8 “ “ Frances dau 5 Surrey Rotherhithe Elizabeth dau ? mths “ “ I have found this family on this census but like the fool I am I forgot to write the details down. They were in London John Coulby Sarah Coulby Thomas Coulby So my questions are…. 1. Is the Elizabeth Barrett on William’s birth cert 1883 the same as Elizabeth Hazzell who marries Thomas William in 1882? 2. Do I have the same families in the census? Even though the surname changes the detail (except for James in 1861) remain constant? Am sorry this is SOOOO long but I need you to read all the facts so you can tell me your thoughts Confused you soon will be

I have a problem with my COULBY line, I have added all teh info i have below, if you could read it and let em know your thoughts I would really appricate it................. Shelli