Genealogy Chat

Michelle, Just looked at these two on Family Search. Samuel piper christened 1849 Birmingham Father Ebenezer Thomas Piper Marriage of Ebenezer Piper to Eliza HART? Frances Hart b 1843 christened 1846 Father John Hart I checked and there seems a lot of Harts listed for Derbyshire. thats a bit of a coincidence. Don't know if I am any better off with all that. Pat x

Michelle Yes I saw them myself and wondered, thing is I am afraid to go looking into birth certs until I know the fathers names, as obviously I cannot claim either of these as mine. Thanks Michelle. Pat x

Hi Pat, I have looked on ancestory, Birmingham comes under Warwickshire from 1837-1924 - I found a Samuel Piper born in 1845 in Birmingham, could this be your man? I know the date is a bit out for him to be 30 in the 1881 census but from experience of mine the age given on census can be very different from their real age! Haven't been able to find a marriage for him but again from experience of looking for my ancestors marriages it seems the 1860s is far from complete on ancestory, compared to other decades. Fanny Hart, there are 2 born in Birmingham, Warwickshire in 1843, again this is a bit out from the census ages, but a possiblity?

Janet Not adding to the confusion at all, I need people to help me with ideas. Now funny you say she may have been married before, I wondered that myself, but how on earth could I find that one out if I cannot get the marriage cert I cannot really go any further as I cannot find a birth cert for Fanny/Frances yet, I really need her father and his father names. Fanny/Frances is on the 1891 census as a widow with a one year old child but I cannot find a death for Samuel yet either, he was young to die but I wondered did she just claim he was dead and he left her with the children, which ofcourse could very well be. Ah Hurt never thought of that one either. Thanks very much Janet for the suggestions. Pat x

Sorry to add to the confusion perhaps Fanny was married previously. It wasn't unusual to be widowed at a young age. Just another thought, have you tried Hurt? Good luck, Janet

Jim I did try Pipe and Pipper didnt think of Heart though. Thanks for giving me more ideas. Pat x

Pat, Have you considered the possibility of a mistranscription? For example Fanny Heart? or Samuel Pipe?

Christine Thank you very much for trying. Yes I know I was checking when he may have been very young but I start to clutch at straws, you know whats its like. It seems that anyone searching the West Midlands area in general is hard done by, the BMSGH site annoys me totally you have to pay for researchers to do the work, it should really be online. Ah well, I will keep going. Thanks Pat x

Hi I'd be inclined to look for the marriage in her area - but not with a closed mind... My grandmother was born near Banbury, but married in W Brom. A g-grandmother was born in Alton, Staffs, but married in Tipton. There are some Cornish ancestors on my husband's side where the family was based in mid-Cornwall but there was a marriage in Ashburton, Devon. If you've got any maritime (or other travelling-around) elements in the family you could have real probs!... Born in Liverpool, married in Gosport? or most of family in Southampton but three children born near Edinburgh! Sometimes you just have to wait for an unexpected door to open, when it all falls into place. [Mixed metaphor there, but probably apt with all the skeletons in family tree closets!! ;-) ] Christine

Hi Lyla, Yes you are helpful I was actually wondering that myself as I did not find a confirmed birth for Samuel, wondered if the ages had been brought closer to each others on the census, then I thought maybe they did not marry at all? I cannot find them in 1871 as Warwickshire and Staffordshire are not on Ancestry yet. Now thats another idea I could ask some kind person to look them up in 1871 but I have this bad feeling they will be living in Birmingham and I wouldn't have an area to ask for. What a headache I've come back to this family because of those Whildings oh dear looks like I'm heading for another brick wall soon. Thanks Lyla Pat x

Christine, Thanks for replying. That was just an example West Bromwich district I just used that because most of my lot came from that area and I couldnt think of another district to use as an example, I do not know where this pair would have married. On the census they are both down as born in Birmingham, they did live for about three years in Derby but that was after their first two children who are down as being born in Birmingham. Now I hope that has not got even more confusing. By what your saying Christine my next cause of action should be a lookup in the area say Birmingham as the births were there. Its a pity BMSGH do not have anything on line, this couple are not on West Midlands site or Free BMD. Many thanks, Pat x

You say that the WestBrom record doesn't appear in 1837Online (i.e. the GRO)? It does seem to have happened that, on occasion, the quarterly transcriptions from the local records to the national index were an opportunity for mistranscriptions and omissions. So if you're comparing, say, BMSGH.org with 1837Online there could be discrepancies. That gap is one reason why the Local ROs can be a better source than GRO. If Samuel was 30 for the 1881 census, then he was born 1850-51. If you're looking at a Jan 1865 marriage, he would have been extraordinarily young. The only West Midlands BMD (http://www.bmsgh.org/wmbmd/) record of a S Piper marriage in the range 1865-90 (as recorded - BUT they are incomplete online): West Midlands Marriage indexes for the years: 1884 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference PIPER Samuel J WARDEN Mary A West Bromwich Register Office Sandwell WBRO/14/139 and for Fanny Hart: West Midlands Marriage indexes for the years: 1880 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference HART Fanny M WILKES Thomas S West Bromwich, St Peter Sandwell 29/1/457 Sadly this doesn't match them up for you! I couldn't find either name on the Staffs site and the (new) Warwickshire site won't play ball. For some reason, altho' all the other local BMD sites are being updated regularly, the W Midlands one hasn't been updated since 9 Dec 2003! (Very frustrating for anyone who's looking in that area.) Christine

I am now very stuck looking for a marriage. I have a family on the 1881 Census: Samuel 30 Wife Fanny or Frances? 34 the eldest daughter is 11 years old. I ordered a cert of one of the youngest daughters (my great grandmother) so I have Fanny/Frances maiden name as HART. I also have Fanny's Death Cert and it states widow of Samuel Piper. I have been searching for a marriage between Samuel and Fanny/Frances and I cannot find one anywhere. I have been through the 1837online all the S Piper anywhere between 1865-1885 there are a few that could have been him but when I searched for any F Hart now I cannot find a match. What I cannot understand is for example a Piper marries a Hart in Jan 1865 in West Bromwich district surely if you look up Hart the details should match on 1837online? Has anyone got any suggestions how I am going to get details of the marriage as I need to find the parents details for this pair. Many thanks Pat x Spinning around in circles, and getting nowhere.