Genealogy Chat

Some thoughts please on this marriage certificate puzzle. My Nan first married in 1925. She was Frances Emily Carter aged 19 and her father was Joseph Ernest Carter. Knowing that she was buried with the name Mellor, I looked for a marriage certificate and ordered it. I wanted to see if she was divorced or a widow. The second marriage (to John Mellor in 1944) gives her name as Frances Emily Singleton, aged 38, but she is a spinster. Her father’s name is now Joseph Ernest Singleton (deceased). Joseph Ernest Carter by this time was deceased. Just to top it all, my mum and her brother have a George Savage as their dad, but I don’t think they married (her name was Singleton on their birth certificates with George Savage as their father). I can’t find out anything about George and don’t know if they never married because he was married or because she was still married. My head is going round trying to put an explanation to it all – can anybody give me their thoughts.

How do you know that the Frances Emily who married 1925 is the same Frances Emily who married in 1944?

Not just one puzzle there, is there??? 1) How have your mum & uncle got a man named as their father on their birth certs, if he wasn't married to their mother? and quite obviously not married, due to the different surnames, so they didn't even tell porkies and say they were married. It is a relatively recent change that allows fathers to be registered on birth certs, although the couple are not married. 2) Do you know the name of your nan's first husband? 3) Very unlikely to state the woman as a spinster if she had been previously married, unless she didn't disclose this. Do you have your nan's birth certificate? I'm wondering, like Helen, if you have definitely got the same person with the two Frances Emily's Sam

I’ll tell you what I definitely have. I know from relatives that my Nan remarried to a Jack Mellor and I have her death certificate telling me that she died at 18 Raleigh Ave, Hayes, which is where my mum was brought up, and where her younger brother was born. The informant on that death certificate was my auntie, who ended up bringing my mum and her brother up. (My auntie was a Singleton from the first marriage). My Nan’s second marriage certificate to a John Mellor has her married from that same address. My mum’s birth certificate (1936) has her father as George David Savage and her mother as Frances Emily Singleton formerly Carter of no occupation. The informants are G D Savage, father and J E Singleton, mother. My uncle, her full brother, was born in 1942, again with the parents listed as before. I have traced a George David who I suspect is my grand-dad but of course I can’t definitely confirm this as I don’t have a marriage certificate to verify father’s name from. He was born in Mile End whereas my Nan was born in Fulham nearby so it is a strong possibility. My great aunt who has now died was the only one who could tell me anything about him and remembers him having a brother named Teddy and the one I have traced does have Edward as a brother. I have just seen another funny coincidence in looking at these certificates. My great Nan, Emily’s mum, died whilst living at 72 Raleigh Ave (widow of Joseph Ernest Carter) and that is the same address that John Mellor was married from (Frances Emily from 18 Raleigh Ave).

Vanessa, I don't want to disappoint you but Mile End is no where near Fulham.

i didn't think 8 miles was a bad distance, and i couldn't see any births the right age nearer. I did follow one up for a long time actually born in Fulham but now think it to be wrong. It certainly makes it harder without a marriage certificate to cross reference father's name on. There certainly weren't many on the 1901 census that fitted the bill. Of course he could be born after then. My nan was born in 1906.

Well, I stand corrected Vanessa regarding the birth certificates, I am amazed that the father is recorded as they were not married at that time, at least. I speak from experience on this subject as I was born in 1963, before my parents married in 1967, and when my mum registered my birth she was asked for her marital status and once she said she was single that was that as far as paternal details. In other words, mine says father unknown, purely because there was no marriage between them. She knew full well who the father was, but it was not allowed to be entered as it was an illegitimate birth, she was not given any option to take my father in to confirm parentage either. Do you have details of the first marriage also? Is your auntie who was a child of that marriage, still living? Sam

The first marriage has my nan with her maiden name of Frances Emily Carter. her father is Joseph Ernest Carter and one of the witnesses is Rose M Carter (Joseph's wife was Rose Minnie) Again Frances Emily is down as spinster and her age is right (19 this time and 38 on her second marriage) Unfortunately my auntie died in 1983. I only wish i'd started all this family researching earlier. Neither my mum nor my dad would talk about their families 9both now dead)

Have you got as far as any census info for yout GGrandparents Vanessa? I have just found a Rose Minnie Carter in 1901 aged 19, not married, born Deptford, living in London. Maybe Joesph took her name when they married as there are some Joseph Singleton's too.

No that's not her. My Rose Minnie Carter was actually born (get ready for more confusion!!) Minnie Rosey Patchington - and married as Rose Minnie Padginton. Fortunately her father had a quite unusual name - Lewin Paginton, so i managed to find it all in the end. Joseph Ernest appears in the 1891 census with his parents, George and Emily and again in 1901 with his parents. I have a photo of Rose Minnie Carter so i know she existed and on her marriage certificate Josephs dad is an omnibus driver (which he is in the census) so i'm sure i've got the right ones. Joseph died at the same address that my mum was born at, so Frances Emily must have been living at her parents when my mum was born.

Just a small addition to the information. For the father's name to be on the certificate, but not as the surname of the child, he would have to attend at the Registrar's office with the mother. If only the mother tried to register it, then the Registrar would be unable to include the father's name - which unfortunately is what must have happened in Sam's case. Stan

Stan Thanks for that - you've now decided me to get a copy of my Uncles Birth Certificate so that i will then know for sure that George Savage followed my Nan from Fulham (where mum was born) to Hayes (where my uncle was born). Any ideas as to how i can find out anything about my grandad. All i have is that he was a House Painter on my mum's birth cert. I did ask for the Electoral Register entry for 7 Melton St, Fulham where my mum was born and neither Frances Emily nor George Savage are on it, even though they gave it when they registered the birth. Mind you it was October and mum was born Feb. Frances' mum Rose Minnie Carter was on there along with two of Frances' married sisters and husbands. The entry for the previous year also has the same entries plus a lodger