Genealogy Chat

My G grandfather was registered at birth as Thomas Edward FRANCE b 1876 in Toxteth Park, I have a copy of the original birth certificate. However his marriage in 1907 shows him as Thomas FRANCIS and this name then continued down the line. His father (according to his son’s marriage certificate) was called Henry but I can find no trace of either of them on the 1881 census. It is a mystery I would love to solve but am unsure where to go next. Thanks Cathryn

Do you have an occupation for his father?

I think the marriage certificate says carter, difficult to read.

Do you have any other clues? Could this be them with a few errors thrown in?? Household: Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability Henry FRANCIS Head M Male 36 Pembroke, Wales Builder Amy FRANCIS Wife M Female 34 Whitchurch, Shropshire, England Henry L. FRANCIS Son Male 14 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Scholar Kezia FRANCIS Dau Female 12 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Scholar Sarah J. FRANCIS Dau Female 10 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Scholar Amy R. FRANCIS Dau Female 4 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Thomas B. FRANCIS Son Male 3 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Susanah H. FRANCIS Dau Female 11 m Liverpool, Lancashire, England William J. GELLING Other Male 18 Isle of Man, England Builders Apprentice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source Information: Dwelling 57 Miranda Rd Census Place Kirkdale, Lancashire, England Family History Library Film 1341881 Public Records Office Reference RG11 Piece / Folio 3678 / 106 Page Number 30 Maggie

Any of these possible?? All got Henry as Father! 1881 British Census - 4 Select records to download - (50 maximum) 1. Thomas J. FRANCES - 1881 British Census / Surrey Son Gender: Male Birth: <1878> Walworth, Surrey, England 2. Tom A. FRANCIS - 1881 British Census / York Son Gender: Male Birth: <1876> Sheffield, York, England 3. Tom FRANCES - 1881 British Census / Dorset Son Gender: Male Birth: <1878> Motcombe, Dorset, England 4. Thomas B. FRANCIS - 1881 British Census / Lancashire Son Gender: Male Birth: <1878> Liverpool, Lancashire, England Cate :-)

could this be 4 year old Thomas living with grandfather and mother in Shropshire? Thomas FRANCE Head W Male 71 Dudleston, Shropshire, England Ag Lab Hannah FRANCE Daur In Law M Female 35 Frankton, Shropshire, England Mary E. FRANCE G Daur Female 10 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Scholar Charles FRANCE G Son Male 7 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Scholar Thomas FRANCE G Son Male 4 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Henry FRANCE G Son Male 1 Dudleston, Shropshire, England -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source Information: Dwelling Dudleston Heath Census Place Ellesmere - Criftins, Shropshire, England Family History Library Film 1341639 Public Records Office Reference RG11 Piece / Folio 2664 / 98 Page Number 16

Don't know if we've found your Thomas Cathryn, but I did find a Thomas McCartney born around the same time and place - wonder if he was any relation to Paul!!

If you got the birth certificate from the GRO it will be a copy of a transcription and (as we all know) transcribers are human and make mistakes. It is possible that FRANCE is a total red herring and he has been FRANCIS all along.

Cathryn further to my reply above re the FRANCE family in Ellesmere, Shropshire.....Henry FRANCE, married, age 41 Carter born Ellesmere, Shrop is a patient at the Liverpool Royal Infirmary on the 1881 census. Also, on the FreeBMD, there is a marriage in the December quarter of 1869 one of the grooms is Henry FRANCE and one of the brides is Hannah LLOYD. Sue

Hi Thanks for all your help, I had seen Thomas living with his grandfather and mother and had thought that could be him. Particularly as there is some connection with Shropshire, according to family. I have the original birth certificate (found in my parents loft) as well as the one from GRO both of which say FRANCE, but Thomas’ marriage certificate says FRANCIS. On Thomas' marriage certificate it says father deceased so being in the infirmary could be linked. Thanks again Cathryn