Genealogy Chat

Hi For a long time now I have been searching for my Great Grandmothers Birth cerificate but had no luck. I knew her name was Rose Harvey and fahter Henry Harvey as I had her Married certificate. And later on I found her in the 1871 and 1881 census with father henry mother Susan. Now the only marriage I could find for Henry was Susan Abraham. I knew it was the right one because on the 1871 Census they had a lodger with a surname Abraham. I had been onto the registry office twice but they could never find it. But yesterday I realised she would have been born in 1866 but Henry and Susan married in 1867. So I suddenly relised that perhaps I should be looking for a Rose Abraham and sure enough the registry office found it yesterday and I recieved it today. But the mothers name is Susan Abraham and there is no father what so ever. She was born in july 1866 and Susan and Henry were married a year and four months later. So what do you reckon the possibility of a different father. Susan was about 20 when she had Rose so it wasnt as though she was that young and she was a spinster when she married. Do you think Henry adopted Rose as his own. I dont know what to do now do I just keep following the Harvey line I have already found Henry's parents but if Henry is not Rose's father then there is no blood line. Can anybody point me in the right direction please. Thanks Debbie

Maybe Susan and Henry had Rose first and then got married later. It happened more than people think - the Victorians weren't all prim and proper. Do you have Rose's marriage certificate and if so what is her surname on that and does it name Henry as her father? Helen

Hi Helen Yes on Roses marriage certificate it does say her father is Henry. But if it was Henrys it was over a year before the marriage and again if it was Henry's then why wasnt his name on the Birth Certificate. I have had people marrying while pregnant before on my tree but not no father on the Birth Certificate. Debbie

Debbie Maybe there was parental opposition to the marriage, or some obstacle to the marriage which was later overcome? Henry obviously accepted Rose as his daughter. Possibly he was too young to marry without his parents' consent? What is the birth cert like? My illegitimate gt grandmother's has "illegitimate" for the father's name, so I will probably never know.

I think they could only put the father on the B/C if they weren't married if he was present when the birth was registered.To prevent women claimimng bastardy payments from people who weren't the real father. But I'mnot sure what year that rule came in. Perhaps someone else knows more? Maybe they weren't allowed to marry for differing religious backgrounds and waited til a parent died: or realised they were still serious and gave in, or maybe they were still married to someone else?? KIM

Helen and Kim Its just a normal Birth Certificate babys name mothers name no maiden name under the fathers name part it just has a line crossed through. I think they were the same religion and neither Henry or Susan was married before Henry would have been about 21 and susan about 20. Perhaps it was just a simple matter of that they had a few dates nothing serious slept together Susan fell pregnant and decided nah I dont like Henry that much and decided to finish it. So had the baby perhaps without him knowing then later on she decided perhaps he wasnt that bad after all and she then married him. I'm just making it up as I go along. Thanks for the replies Debbie

Well we have to make up what we don't know! You just have the bare fact that the baby was born a while before the marriage. Maybe they were poor and Henry was saving up to provide a house before they married. I don't think most 20-year-old girls would have dumped their boyfriends when they were pregnant - there was a stigma about illegitimacy and also you'd want the financial security. Of course, the alternative remains that the father is Mr Unknown and that Henry wanted to marry Rose and was prepared to be chivalrous about the child. I suppose you could check the local records office to see if they have any papers concerning financial claims against another man for maintenance of the child?

Hi Debbie, If you can get to the County Record office where Rose was born it might be worth trying to find her in the church baptism register. The entry may show 'baseborn' but father named : people were unlikely to lie in church and anyway the vicar probably knew what was going on locally, specially if it was a small place. Judith

This is just my opinion but I personally would assume he was the father until such time you find evidence that he was not. There are plenty of scenarios as to why they delayed marriage- maybe he went away to work and she found out she was pregnant in the meantime? You will maybe never know, but the point is that he brought her up as his daughter, he was listed as her father on the birth certificate- he clearly thought of her as his daughter so perhaps you should too! In my opinion he still deserves the recognition of being on your tree as her father-blood or no blood. Just my opinion though, at the end of the day itis your call!!!

I spent 12 months searching for the birth of my Great Aunt. Eventually I discovered exactly the same as you - she was born before the marriage. She was registered by my Great Aunt's dad as a MILLER. After the marriage, she retained the name MILLER as a third christian name. Goodness knows who the father really was but I've decided that it was Gt Uncle - if not, I lose a lot of recently discovered relatives! Jill

My great grandmother was on her marriage certificate as Mary Clark, I could not trace her anywhere, there was also no father named in the box on the m/c . Then whilst looking on freebmd I noticed an entry for mary Weaver Clark . Weaver was the middle name. I found her onthe 1881 census living with both parents as Mary Weaver! She was born 2 months before they married. perhaps her mother had to convince Mr Weaver that he was the father ,hence the delay, or perhaps she came early. Who knows. She is on the 1881 census as Mary Weaver and the 1901 census as Mary Clark. When she married she married a Weaver too. So her real name if we pick hairs was Mary Weaver Weaver , after marriage! No wonder she left it off.The father was not named on the marriage cert or the birth cert yet he was there on 2 census entries.

Thank you all for your replies. I have decided that Henry Harvey will be her Father until I can get to the records office to see if there is anymore names that come up. Thank you all so much Debbie

Debi You could check if there is a bastardy list for the area, not sure where it would be kept but if there was a father around they would have tried to make him pay towards the baby. Ann Glos

Just seen in Ancestors magazine - June- ........Settlement certificates and bastardy orders for maintenance payments which are found among quarter session records. Ann Glos

Thanks for that Ann So I suppose I would find them at the Records office? That might give me a good enough reason to get out there. I have never been before always too scared but I am going to pluck up the courage and go. Debbie

Debi If you don't find them there they will be able to advise you where to find them. Ann Glos

Hi Debbie, I have E mailed you direct. Mary

If Susan was only 20 I think you have your answer. She would have been under age and perhaps her parents didnt like Henry. Seeing as she married a year later that would have pointed out to her waiting to come of age.