Genealogy Chat

Is John born 1756 died 1845 age 89 St Aubyn 18 croft st Williams father present at death John

My John born 8/10/ 1815 lived at no 20 croft st died 11/9/1849

the father of my William born 1792/1795 Dock Devonport died 28/6/1842 at a lunatic asylum clowance devonport

or is it William born 1766 on the 1841 census Ireland

I have a death certificate with a William McDowall died 21/1/1844 age 74 Stoke Damerel lived 57 chapel st devonport

can any kind person help sort this family out


Joyce

Hi Joyce,

I'm willing to have a go at a time-line. Numbering is arbitrary but you will know who is who.

1756 John#1 is born
1770 William#1 is born ; John#1 is 14
1795 William#2 is born (your William) J1=39 W1=15
1815 John#2 is born J1=59 W1=45 W2=20
1842 John #99, Father of William#2, dies in asylum
1844 William#1 dies age 74 J1=88 W2=49 J2=29
1845 John#1 dies age 89 "with William's father present" J2=30
1849 John#2 dies age 34; W2=54
18?? William#2 dies


Based on relative ages
William#1 and John#1 are brothers or cousins
William#2 cannot be John#1's son if the father-dies-in-asylum reference is both true and I have understood who is who correctly.
William#2 cannot be William#1's son because of small age gap.
Invoke a hypothetical John#99 to be William#2's father
John#2 looks likely to be William#2's son

William#1 pre-deceases his elder brother.
It looks like he has no sons.
So John#1 inherits.

John#1 dies. John#2 signs the certificate and declares he is father of William (so we need docs for a William#3, born pre-1845)

William#2 inherits, aged 54.
John#2, his heir, dies young.
William#2 dies... without any other heirs?



Second pair of eyes, anyone? I'm missing some pieces - such as John#1's son. Do I need to invoke a William#3 to account for the death-cert comment?


M

Mark you are a gem

it will take me a while to sort it out as Im not definate about william 1766 and john 1756 is the correct father

unless you agree todo it for me ?????

if I sent you my 3rd great grandparents family
by email

Many thanks

Joyce

Hi Joyce,

As it happens, I'm not at all convinced that I'm anywhere near being right with the stuff so far, yet. For instance, you mention 1766 and I now realise I totally overlooked the chap on the Irish census, in my timeline. That may be because I couldn't see how you thought he might be in any way connected to this family.

Anyway, I was rather hoping to draw other people into the thread to see what they think.

To be honest, I've only got back as far as 1880's with my own tree, so I am totally unfamiliar with the nature of the documentation you are having to deal with, for that era. If you give me a few weeks, in which to try and progress that far back, then I'll begin to understand what you're up against.

Is it really no better than a guessing game, based on names, locations and dates?


Mark

Thanks again Mark

Ill get back to you when Ive checked all my paperwork as its so confusing at the moment

I dont think william born in 1766 ireland is connected somehow its just that the records office sent me the wrong death certificate

can I help you at all


Joyce from portsmouth

Hi Joyce,

that's kind of you to offer but I'm okay for the moment.

I'm expecting my first lot of certificates tommorrow (the suspense is killing me: the ONS site said despatch date would be Oct 12 and I *am* making allowances for the strike) and I will see what avenues that opens up for me.

Batch 2 is on order but could take until next Monday to arrive, so I will be back to see how this thread progresses.


Mark

Mark
My friend asked how you found all these dates

she beleaves John b 1765 is the head one



Joyce

Joyce,

I do not know whether you have all the MCDOWELL data from the Devon FHS "The Deanery of the Three Towns" index of baptisms (1813-1837), marriages (1754-1837), burials (1813-1837).

If you want them please send me a PM.

Pete

Pete
sorry what is a PM
why is there only dates for births and deaths 1813 - 1837


Joyce

Joyce,

A PM is a personal message. Create one by clicking on the name of the person you wish to contact. (You see where there is a line under my name on the left of this message)

In answer to the question re dates of baptism and burial records - these are the years which have been transcribed and included on the disc.

You can get Stoke Damerel baptisms 1689 - 1801 on the IGI. However you can get some other Stoke Damerel baptisms from Hugh Wallis the OPC for the parish.

http://ca.geocities.com/[email protected]/resources.htm

If you want the info that I can get for you, you'll need to provide your email address so that I can send the information to you. I would alway pass an email address through a PM rather than pasting it up on the message board

Pete

Hi Joyce,

I got the dates from what you typed in your first post.

That time, you said John was 1756 (which I copied into my timeline).

Now you're saying 1765, which changes my calculated ages and might affect my overall conclusions.


By the way, when I said "brother or cousins" before it was because I really have no way to tell.

If you come across two births, less than 9 months apart I think it's safe to say the newborns are cousins. But even that doesn't conclusively prove that the respective fathers are brothers.

Furthermore, baptism records are not as solid a form of dating evidence as birth certificates are. From what I've been reading, the impression I'm left with is that they were more like big social gatherings and several babies could all be baptised on the same day. Convenient for the Priest's schedules and the costs of the post-ceremonial celebrations could be spread amongst the participant couples.

In a situation like this, I think you're left with no choice but to start searching for "supporting documentation".

Wills
News sheets
Bills and Receipts
Letters of introduction
Legal proceedings
{anything else likely to have been put into long-term storage or snapped up by historical researchers}


Basically anything which might contain side-references indicating who was related to whom and in what way.

If a particular family member was notable amongst the community then comments may be made stating the link along the lines of "Mr ____ ___, son of {notable person}...." did/said/purchased such and such.


I hope this helps


Mark