Genealogy Chat

Thanks Gail - I have a query on the case of there being 2 m certs etc so will start a new line on this tips board entitled - bigamous marriage certificates.
John

Hi John

Pleased to hear the update. How sad for his 'wife', you may be able to find descendants who have more information.

Good luck with getting to the bottom of your family story.

Gail

To all interested - still no census info or birth but now have details of his bigamous marriage partner and her subsequent Son. She was informed so it is told by a note through letter box whilst in labour. He was born 1887 on m cert but a liar like this may not be telling the truth - he gives the correct data on father's occupation however.

n

Can't believe how helpful you are to me Gail.. I've applied for 2 marriage certificates for 'Frank H.' one for 1911 to Sue's nan in Bedford and another to Ethel Telfer in Fulham 1916 - not sure if the latter ishim but it's the only one to hand and must be between 1911 and 22 when she applies for divorce. Ethel wouldn't have needed a divorce as the wedding wouldn't have taken place legally. I'll let you know how it's marked ie NOT LEGAL or otherwise.

This 'not on 1901' isn't unusual for me - can't find either of my g'parents on mother's side and I wonder how valuable such data collection is if so many are absent.

Hi John

You have to 'become a member' of the virtual library, which involves filling in the joining details, only the same details you would give to join any library - name, address and email. They will then email you a log in number and a pin number.

Once you have joined..go back onto the site with your numbers and go to

information and reference - newspapers online

log in using your pin number and library card number

look at newspapers and you will see what the current password is..so then

click on newspapers and enter the password

Click on The Times Digital Archive and begin your searches....

It always sounds so complicated this procedure but it isn't when you get used to it.

This is a great resource even if you don't find Frank in it.

Gail.

Thanks Gail - couldn't get into Timeswithout a Beds. code number but through its Family Tree Web Site got into the National Archives and found the Divorce Reference J77/1937/620 submitted by Appellant Florence Elizabeth Mortimer Respondent Frank Harry Mortimer. The files are at Kew - perhaps more detail than the simple document on divorce we have here.
So on record we have a marriage in 1911 for Frank Harry and a divorce 1922 to 4 but still no birth/death/census. Could he really be Houdini?
Further to your q about second marriage - it's not on record under his name but then...

Hi John

I hope the marriage certificate helps to unravel your mystery. Are you going to buy the certificates from both his marriages..........it is something I have not thought about before - what happens when there is a bigamous marriage? do both marriage certificates stand or is one withdrawn or marked 'not legal' or something. Is the marriage annulled...??

You can join the Virtual Library here....

http://www.galaxy.bedfordshire.gov.uk/cgi-bin/vlib.sh

this will give you free access to the Times.

I cannot see any another reference to him in the newspaper, so no more clues there, however you might find something.

Good luck, let us know how you get on if you can.

Gail.

Thanks again Gail - I'm now getting that marriage cert. I know that M in L's grandfather lived and worked at Naval College, Greenwich and names etc match Frederick the Porter on 1901 census. Why no mention of Frank Harry apart from Marriage & Divorce? I've a list of siblings but Frank...

Can one get onto Times online? I can presume he's dead but cannot find that record either.

Hi John

I am not quite sure from your post if you have Frank Harry's marriage certificate(s) or not, you need to get a copy really to be sure of Frank Harry's father's name - where did you get Frederick William from?

There is a marriage in 1911 (Bedford) of a Frank Harry Mortimer and a Florence and there is a record of a divorce on the National Archive Site.

J 77/1937/620 Divorce Court File: 620. Appellant: Florence Elizabeth Mortimer. Respondent: Frank Harry Mortimer. Type: Wife's petition for divorce [wd]. 1922

So if this is Frank Harry it may worthwhile to follow this up.

There is also a listing in the Times Online for Jan 28th 1924 under the Law Notices, (Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division) for a F E Mortimer/F H Mortimer.

Gail.

Thanks for all your efforts but the above were the family in both the 1881 & 1901 census. My wife's uncle was name Frank Harry after his father and her mother was Yvonne MABEL after a sister of her father who died young. All this ties up but where are the records of Frank Harry Mortimer senior? I haven't got his marriage certificate which would give age wouldn't it and I wonder if the News of the World or others might have reported his bigamy. My M in law tells of being taken on a tour of duty to Gibraltar butcan't see that would help. Thanks for your help,
John

What is a rough year of birth for this chap? How do you know there were "loads" of siblings? If this lot of Mortimers are his family then I would say it is likely he is the Fred Harold - does the date match with his marriage cert and other docs?

Births Dec 1876 (>99%)
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Mortimer Frederick Harold Alverstoke 2b 510

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Births Sep 1878 (>99%)
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Mortimer Edward George Alverstoke 2b 550

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Births Jun 1880 (>99%)
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MORTIMER Henry Sidney Alverstoke 2b 568

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Births Mar 1882 (>99%)
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Mortimer Joseph Henry Alverstoke 2b 578

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Births Dec 1883 (>99%)
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MORTIMER Leonard Albert Alverstoke 2b 551

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Births Sep 1885 (>99%)
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Mortimer Mary Winifred Alverstoke 2b 530

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Births Sep 1886 (>99%)
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Mortimer Violet Margaret E Alverstoke 2b 565

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Births Jun 1887 (>99%)
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Mortimer Fredalinn Kate Alverstoke 2b 579
Mortimer Selina Ruth Alverstoke 2b 579

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Births Jun 1889 (>99%)
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Mortimer Mabel Emma Alverstoke 2b 559

For Reference

1901

Fredk Mortimer
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma
Where born: Portsea, Hampshire, England

Civil Parish: Greenwich
Ecclesiastical parish: St Alphage
County/Island: London

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich East
ED, institution, or vessel: Royal Naval College

Emma Mortimer 47 born Greenwich
Fredk Mortimer 47
William Mortimer 9 born Hull, Yorkshire

Class: RG13; Piece: 543; Folio: 102; Page: 2.



Is this the right family in 1881

Frederick Mortimer
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma
Where born: Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

Civil Parish: Alverstoke
County/Island: Hampshire

Street address: No 8 St Johns Sqr
Married
Occupation: Private Royal Marines

Registration district: Alverstoke
Sub-registration district: Alverstoke

Edward G. Mortimer 2 born Forton
Emma Mortimer 27 born Greenwich
Frederick Mortimer 26 born Portsmouth
Frederick H Mortimer 4 born Forton
Henry S. Mortimer 1 born Forton

Class: RG11; Piece: 1164; Folio: 55; Page: 37; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341285.

Gail.

Hi John

Just been looking at the census for the family and wondering if he could be Frederick Harold, but called himself Frank Harry - what was his age on his marriage certificate...

Gail.

Desperately seeking Frank Harry. He was son of Frederick William b1854 who was working as Porter at Greenwich Naval College in 1901 census. Loads on brothers & sisters but he is never on a Census or BMD apart from entry on 26/9/1911 when he married in Bedford and from mother in laws documents his divorce 1/10/24 for bigamy. Surely he would appear somewhere in childhood if not later.

Most of his siblings were born Alvestoke, Hants.