General Chat

Boo, Mick! - you've nailed it. Free, fair and informed choice.

It applies to a whole lot of life apart from culturally ingrained/imposed women's clothing. Of course, it applies to said women's clothing in our own societies, too.

Some years ago, women in Ontario won the right to go topless in public, since enforcing public decency laws only against women who did so was ruled a violation of anti-discrimination laws.

Did we all run out and walk around topless in public? Nope. Who did? Street hookers. And *because of our cultural taboos* about what should and should not be done, which are not always consistent with what modern human rights tell us we may do, that's exactly what I would have felt like had I done it. Let alone been compelled to do it.

And I imagine that's about what many women who wear the hijab (head scarf) would feel like if they were compelled to take it off. I'm not talking about the obnoxious young women who were reared in the West and suddenly decide it is a mark of their devotion to cover themselves up. I'm talking about women like the ones mentioned in Iran -- or a Shi'ite client of mine from Iraq whose Sunni husband had been threatened if he didn't divorce her: it was just how she was reared and what was done in her community, it didn't mean much to her other than that.

Orthodox Jewish women are required to cover their heads too, we do know? They often do it with wigs, which seems like a rather odd way around the rule. And what was it St Paul had to say to Christian women about covering their heads in church?

There are few cultures that don't impose taboos about women's bodies.


That said ... obviously I reject all of them. I look forward to them withering and dying. And vicious old men telling women what to do when it comes to *anything* in our lives will get nothing but the finger from me. Cultures belong to women too.

That includes any pope who tries to interfere in the reproductive freedoms of women who don't recognize him as god's gift to them, of course.


Oh, and I don't presume to tell other people how they should practise their religion or culture. If RC women want to do what their pope tells them, their choice. If Muslim women want to wear the hijab or the burka or anything else or none of it, their choice. Not my religion, I don't get to make the rules or choices.

But free, fair and informed choice -- what a wonderful thing it would be!

Tricia, one hardly knows where to begin.

"So while in this country they should obey our laws,(better add its not against the law to wear them) not try to rewrite them to suit themselves by threatening us. Just other things I hear they are trying to change like getting Sharia law as part of british law.Our Troops are fighting for their freedom fgs."

You're right. It is not against the law. And there are many fine points on which reasonable people of good will can disagree, for instance what the procedure should be for women who wear the veil when they have to identify themselves for security purposes.

"Reasonable" and "good will" are the key words there.

"Reasonable" involves knowing one's facts. I was just reading a quotation from a famous USAmerican: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Before starting up with the Shari'a law issue, one should know what one is talking about.

If you're going to claim that someone has threatened you, you really had better be prepared to back that up.

First, you might want to start limiting your use of this "they" and "them" and "their". It's distasteful. "They" are not one big vague brown Muslim gang.

"Good will" involves not making blanket statements about anyone and being willing to listen to what they have to say without trying to impose one's own views or wishes for no good reason.

As far as who's fighting for what: give me a break. Your troops are not fighting for anyone's freedom. They're fighting for oil; possibly at the outset (in Afghanistan) against a genuine security threat. You would do well not to tell other people what they must do because of what you are supposedly doing for them, when they didn't ask for it and don't want it.

Why do you think Faisal was assasinated?
He wanted 'freedom' for women!
He introduced education for girls.
He managed to get an allowance for one woman to drive in Saudi Arabia - the woman in charge of his stables - a British woman.
Since his assasination, the Mullah's have been gaining more and more control. Shame his sons - all educated in England - seem to lack any backbone!!!
May seem hard to believe, but I met Faisal. Dad was working in Saudi, and selected a Saluki from Faisal - who bred them.
The puppies, when they were weaned, were put in a 'nursery'. Dad's puppy - Shala'am - killed all the other male puppies in the nursery!!!
He got the puppy on condition that he wasn't castrated until he had 'performed' to make up for his natural instinct!
We went to tea with King Faisal so Shala'am could 'do his duty'. I wore jeans and a muslim top (without bra) and Faisal didn't turn a hair!
He was all for women having more freedom, and was disgusted that, whilst in the Souk, I had removed my veil (it was bloody hot), only to have a 'religious policeman' pull a gun on me!!
My dad was pretty voluble about it too - he was a convert to Islam, taught religion (in Saudi) and quoted chapter & verse to this plonker (the religious policeman not Faisal!)! But a bleedy great gun in your face is pretty scary!!! LOL


Could the situation in Saudi be (yet again) our education system failing!!
All Faisal's children and grandchildren were educated in our top public schools!

Isn't the hijab a religious thing whereas the burkha isn't??? I vaguely remember reading that the quaran (sp) says that women must cover their heads and necks, hence the wearing of the hijab for religious reasons.

Isn't the hijab a religious thing whereas the burkha isn't??? I vaguely remember reading that the quaran (sp) says that women must cover their heads and necks, hence the wearing of the hijab for religious reasons.

I blieve Muslim women are required to cover their hair.
The degree to which they must cover the body is interpreted in different ways in different countries.
K

I'm afraid it all comes from the Bible, adopted by Islam, where both men and women are 'encouraged' to dress modestly.
Modesty, of course is in the eye of the beholder.
It really pees me off to see a husband and wife walking down the road in Britain - she wearing the hi'jab - he wearing shorts and a tee shirt!
If 'she ' has to be soooo modest - so should he!!
In Saudi - men have to 'cover up' too!

Thanks Karen and Maggie :-)

Would that be Dubai, Karen - the one place in the world I never want to visit!!
The 'modesty' crap refers to both sexes - how often have I wanted to berate an 'underdressed' male and 'overdressed' female in this country!! LOL

Ive seen it in lots of places Maggie, Dubai probably the worst culprit (but hey let's save those hideously hypocrytical locals for another debate), but also in the bigger cities these days - Cairo, Amman, Doha. Yes, men in (long) shorts are creeping in.
Not Saa'uudi, tho'....men in shorts?? Heaven forbid. Their back to front baseball caps with a dish-dash is side-splitting enough!! LOL

K

My Son (or one of four) served in Iraq and is currently in Afghanistan , says that women in muslim countries are so oppressed it is beyond belief
to speak to a a muslim woman you have to talk to the men who then talk to the women,who then reply and are answered by the men .
Anyway i worked with a muslim woman who wore "hijab" she said it was her choice as her sister did not , but they are British born and bred muslims with maybe less of the draconian views of the men in arabic countries .
2PLease be careful of what you say on here(and i should know)

There's a poster from Woodstock I've been trying to find a link to that does more than pee me off, it turns my stomach. Can't find one ...

A couple walking down the road, seen from the rear. He is fully clothed, covered from neck to ankle. She is completely naked.

(In fact, photos from Woodstock are rife with naked or near-naked women surrounded by fully clothed men.)

In terms of what that says about women in a society -- women as objects -- that beats a burka hands down, to my mind.

Whether we agree with it or not, Muslim women in a traditional society are not allowed to talk direct to any man who is not their husband, brother, son, father, nephew, or uncle.

In certain countries it’s not a case of your old man telling you to cover up, it is a requirement under Sharia law.
There are countries where women cover by choice, because let’s not forget that covering up is actually a sign of a womans respectability in Islamic society.

OMG Karen, when I was in Saudi (in the '70's) the men had sideburns, which they hid by using hairgrips attached to their kufyah, and plenty of 'bling' underneath.
The women all wore Gucchi and platforms under the burkah.

So glad my dad was a believer/follower of the Qu'uran and not Shariah (one of the reasons he taught religion) - he was attached to no particular 'faction'.
Not being a t*t exposer myself, his conversion had little effect on me - apart from when I stayed in Saudi! LOL

Then nothing has changed Maggie, except for the sideburns probably!
They still love the bling and the designer clothes, and the baseball caps back to front (over the top of the kufyah, of course), not forgetting the diamond studded mobile phones, lots of.
K


P.S. you know they've got M&S, Harvey Nicks, Debenhams, Next etc there now? These wouldn't have been there in your day of course.
P.P.S. Yes you read that right, Marks n' flippin Spencer!!!

....so still a Kitsch as ever ! LOL

The Bedouin were lovely!
Dressed as I liked.

I think M & S (that nice Jewish firm) were just appearing when I was there! - Possibly the first of the 'high street' stores. LOL

.
hi janie
long time no insults lol.
Yes i see your point and in a strange way agree , but and here's the rub
Should we allow shira law in this country , if we lived in a muslim country would we be allowed to practice catholocism or buddism or any other religion other than Islam .
Shira law is handled by a council of muslim elders or respectable muslims?
who decide on the accused fate , don't we have law courts in this country to do that , if you are living in this country albeit for 20 years or 20 days they should be tried by British justice
If you are caught wrondoing in a muslim country you have to accept their punishment so a lot of parity their then.

The Bedu strike me as very genuine people, true to their beliefs.

You can sew all your labels back in now Maggie.
LOL


K