General Chat

I have mentioned this before, but I recommend 'The Fool hath said' by Beverley Nichols if you can find a copy...some of his points are well worth reading, as he explores faith and disbelief...

For example he looks at the evidence for and against the Gospels being a true account of the life of Christ...eg the differences and similarities between the accounts of Matthew and John, if the Gospels were written in collusion conspiritorially between Matthew, Mark, Luke and John there would be no differences...the fact that there are those differences implies that like all writers of events they had their own perception of the 'important' bits, just as the reader may have.

Feel free to contribute - we dont bite!

No you are not Cynthia



I am standing with you ......................

Miss Marplish my portrayal may well be, but it gets across my point of the benign nature of the CoE, once you put aside it's origins.

Marriage scams - theres a lot of it about. Just yesterday 2 more vicars were arrested in Nottingham, I think, in connection with it, one was jailed today for 4 1/2 years, another one was jailed in January - it's not a minor problem. Yes, I agree their personal greed was the reason, but where was the supervision? And I would never castigate the whole church for the actions of a few, but it calls into question the ease with which church based weddings are carried out. My point is that if you pay the money, the church will marry you, no questions asked and it matters not if you are a churchgoer or otherwise. Hypocrisy is a reasonable charge that may be levelled towards the church policy makers, but it will not be answered.

Wars. Now. Are you going to tell me that the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia wasn't religion based? over 100,000 dead? Are you going to try to say that second Sudanese and the Lebanese civil wars werent religion based? Over 2 million in those. Sectarian murders in NI? 9/11 and the consequent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? Not religion? Please. These are recent ones. Just because the crusades and the Holy Roman wars are a long time ago doesn't make them right. Around 15 million dead? Do I need go on? I can! Try telling a woman who lost her husband and the father of her children in the twin towers that religious fanatics weren't to blame. No, religious conflicts and wars are to blame for untold human suffering and misery. It cannot be mitigated by a few soup kitchens or a new mosque.

Yes, Dawkins and I agree on that one. I dont know whether or not there is a god. I do, however, know that no one has come up with any evidence for one, in the same way that no one has come up with any evidence for the unicorn that lives at the bottom of the field at Dingly Dell. In the same way as I don't know whether or not there is a giant teapot in orbit around the planet zog that hasn't even been discovered yet. A book of uncertain origin and translated numerous times by different people, decided upon by a committee and translated again and again is not what I would call evidence by any stretch of the imagination.

But thank you for staying with me - I do enjoy, honestly, the differing viewpoints. :-)

Edit : i admire your faith and please dont think anything i say is directed in a perrsonal way, it isn't. I would never presume to criticise individuals and i admire anyone who stands up for their principles. Well, mostly anyway lol

I'd better clarify something .........the hotpot scenario isn't a soup kitchen, it's a luncheon club and meals are paid for. I actually said that the council workers got their food for free not the police. :-D



Edit: My feet are firmly planted in my faith but I can see that I am heavily outnumbered..............takes deep breath and stands up straight.... :-D

Not always that way Ann,

I was helping at our local school ( by the way nothing to do with religeon)

The teacher was doing a test (cannot recall what it was for)
anyway she wrote down a little story on the blackboard and asked the children to copy it word for word.

Then she told the children to read the story at home, the next day she asked them to write what they thought the story meant.

and you would not believe how differently they viewed the same story.
some were almost identical but most were not.

mankind is his own worst enemy sometimes.!

Flo

That is true Florence. Also, the person who writes the book gives their version of events, not necessarily exactly what happened.

What have i been missing !!

At last someone else blames the human race!

man kind as a lot to answer for in all area,s of the world!

I try not debate about religeon, have my own feelings and i am quite happy with them.

Anyway i am not very good with words !! so i am quite happy to watch!
this one , especually as i can see that Cyntha is doing a cracking debate via Eldrick.

Flo,,,,ps.,,,err can i just say i like miss marple !!


edit,,,, All people can read a book, but all people will not have the same answers after reading the same book. so thats why debates like this never get answered .

An interesting thread and nice to see a bit of good debate.

My feet are both well in Eldrick's camp on this. I was brought up to believe in God, but my parents weren't churchgoers. By the age of 8 I had seen the snooty looks from the churchgoing women in their Sunday hats, had given the subject much thought, saw much that just didn't add up and didn't like the way religion hijacked any goodness in a person as due to following a God. I could see by that age that behaving in certain ways was the best way to get along and live in society, that caring and helping was a two way thing and none of it anything to do with following a religion. From then on I was a non believer. Religious study blighted my schooldays, being looked down on by the Sunday School goody two shoes who knew all the answers but didn't practice in their behaviour what they preached in class convinced me all the more of the hypocrisy. One of the reasons I didn't stay on at school for 'A' levels was compulsory Religious Education. I've even got a flippin 'O' level in it as it was compulsory for us to take it!! I know it would shock a lot of people, but I would remove all religion from schools and let parents or churches do the job if they want to. Why should a child's chances be ruined through being force fed what they don't believe in when that time could be spent more productively in their education? What a waste of taxpayers' money too.

Churches would be more filled in the 1800s. People had large families then which would have filled the pews. Also a lot of children wouldn't survive, so there would have been far more bapstisms and burials for each family to attend. I don't think everyone went because they wanted to, but because not to do so would be frowned upon in those times.

On the subject of the vicar and the hotpot, years ago my then boss would cycle to a local soup kitchen at weekends to help prepare it and to serve it. The people he served were the very needy. Tramps, drunks, down and outs, the mentally ill, often smelly and flea ridden. He would sit and chat to them too and collect clothing donations to give them. He did this as well as his full time job. As for the police being given and taking food!!!

From what I see, church wedding pressure does happen, quite often from bride's mothers!!

I do hope no-one thinks I am trying to 'indoctrinate' dear Eldrick......heaven forbid - I am simply stating how things are from where I stand - I won't fall out with him over it..... :-D


The murdered Vicars comment was simply to try and counterbalance your view on the clergy who are criminals - just flipping the coin so to speak to show that clergy are often the victims of crime.


You can take my word for it....(if you believe me of course)....that it was not a scam which was organised by a church hungry for money.- I imagine any gain went straight into the miscreant's pocket. Finance may be needed, but we wouldn't stoop that low.


Okay.....let's remove the word 'State' and replace it with 'Established'. Until things change, we can't get away from it.....whether we like it or not. In the Order of Precedence for the United Kingdom, the Archbishop of Canterbury ranks immediately after the royal family and above the Prime Minister.



Your view of the C. of E. is very Miss Marple-ish my friend :-S


Hats are very rarely worn-except for weddings or cold weather.

Sunday clothes went out with the Ark.

The younger generation turn up in casual gear - as do many older folk.

Tea and biscuits are okay but many prefer the wine and cheese option.

Fetes are hard work. I'm surprised you didn't mention beetle or whist drives or whatever Miss Marple used to do.


Not everyone is nice and cuddly - we have some very prickly characters in our ranks.


Wars? Yep....religion gets the blame for them :-(
Not that people 'hate' for different reasons of course.........pride, greed, jealousy, lust etc.....yep, can't blame human nature, so let's pin it on religion .



Dawkins? Dawkins? Now where have I heard that name before?

Oh yes, he's the one who, earlier this year reckoned that he can't be sure God doesn't exist isn't he?? :-D

My mum is 86 years old and she's told me she wants a secular funeral - but not for a long time yet! She was brought up in a small welsh village - as was I - and always made to attend chapel. She said she realised there couldn't possibly be any sort of god when such atrocities were carried out by the Japanese during the war. That didn't stop her sending her children to chapel until we could make up our own minds. We all grew up to be atheists.

Annie

ok, well, when these religions and beliefs were founded, the world was a very primitive place by todays standards. Many things in nature were unexplained and people thought that the sun revolved round the earth, that the stars were on celestial spheres that rubbed together and made music, they thought thunder and lightning was the gods fighting or getting annoyed, etc. Anything they didnt understand was given an explanation that seemed perfectly reasonable at the time.

It was quite natural - and common to all cultures and religions - to create a counter to their good god by making a devil, or satan, or whatever name they decided upon. They could then blame people who murdered or stole, or didnt believe in their god as being owned or possessed by this devil.

It was all perfectly sensible then. After all, it was good practise to sacrifice children and commit genocide in the name of their gods, so why not create a devil to explain bad things?

As time moved on, the medieval church played upon this concept of satan and hell as a means of keeping the populations in check by threatening them with this if they didnt conform.

The residue lingers on in all religions and is as false as the idea of an omnipotent being in the first place. None of it stands up to the least scrutiny and has no place in the modern world where science can be used to explain the vast majority of things.

Sometimes I hear or read, 'It was the work of the devil' or
'God told me to do it' we as humans are always looking
for someone/something to blame. I googled The Work
of the Devil and found the following.......

The devil is just as much an actual being as God himself is.
In fact, the same Bible that introduces God to man also
presents the devil as a real entity,having superior intelligence
to man. (Gen.1:1;3:1,2.)

Your take on that Eldrick.

Emma

Yes ,throws a dferent light ontheir belief somewhat. :-S

Yes, it would be. Perhaps we are part of a huge cosmic experiment....OMG, that would make scientology right! It's more complicated than I thought......

:-D

17 dusky eyed virgins? I do believe that it is not specified whether they are male or female. Now that puts a different light on things, eh?

:-0

Can I just pick you up on a line Eldrick ( haven't time to read through thoroughly)

"Historically - and currently - there far more death and destruction being wrought by religion ..."

well yes of course, however, statistically speaking, there is nothing else to compare it with?...ie there is no 'other Earth' full of humans, that has NO religion. It would be interesting if there were wouldn't it?

You are absolutely right in your comments about altruism.

Most of what is on here is true,However people believe what they think is best for them,sadly others try to indoctrinate their beliefs on others ,which to me is wrong,In most cases today re religeon its, a case of Hatch, Match and despatch and that is theonly time they attend a church. then of course there is the other religeon who tell you that If you become a "Martre" you will be given 17 dusky eyed virgins as a reward.sounds interesting. ;-)

I don't normally get involved in debating any religious matters but i am basically in Eldricks camp on this subject,

I see lots of post on several web sites about the "God is great" syndrome
Please forgive me if that offends any one it's not my intentions but just the way i personally see it,

My question is simple, Why are the worst troubled places on earth countries where the majority are devout believers in ( a ) religion ?



Roy

Hi Cyn

You are using your one church as a shining example. I dont doubt for one moment any of the things you are saying, but that doesnt make them right or the exclusive property of the PR arm of the CoE.

Of course there's no charge for baptisms - its not hard to work out why! But the collection plate is still there - give us your money, paper preferably :-)

Murdered vicars? Where is the connection between criminal vicars and murdered vicars? It is a tragedy when anyone loses their life, but no more a tragedy for a vicar to be murdered than someones son, daughter, husband or wife. It's all equally tragic, so I dont see how you can posit any connection at all. I mention the marriage scam as an example of the church being hungry for money.

State religion? That one makes me shudder! A religion imposed and endorsed by the state is far too medieval for my taste - and many others. If it was a democratic election thing, would there be bishops be in the HoL? I think not. In the next 50 years we will see a full separation of church and state as people start to think for themselves.

Anyway, I have said it many times, the CoE is the benign face of religion. It is cuddly and nice and full of tea and biscuits and fetes and nice people who like to wear nice hats and new clothes on Sundays. It is only when I look at the doctrrines and rituals that I start to feel queasy! Making hotpot for the police doesn't make it right. You can do that without wearing a dog collar.

RR - Historically - and currently - there far more death and destruction being wrought by religion than by big business and corporate greed, although maybe they are not that far apart. Even if they were equal, that doesnt excuse anything. Sunnis killing shi'ites, jews and arabs killing each other, until recently catholics and protestants in Ireland, Bosnia, the holocaust, execution of gay men in iran and other places, 9/11, Angola, Uganda, and on and on and on. And that is only a fraction of it. The inquisition, crusades, withcraft trials, heretics, vatican support of the nazi regime, anti semitism, the lives lost, the suffering, the misery, cruelty, torture and horrors inflicted on the human race are endless. In the name of what and to what purpose?

And people still believe in this. Even in the 21st century, people turn a blind eye and still go along with it all. I am afraid religion is in denial.

As for the alms question - I give considerable amounts to charity, but I'm very selective as to which ones. I don't crow about it and dont make a fuss. As soon as I hear someone boasting about how much they give to this charity or that charity, I switch off. They are doing it for the wrong reason. I believe that human beings are naturally altruistic in nature and to suggest that altruism is learnt from religion is incorrect, not to mention insulting towards good people who have no belief in the supernatural. Not that you are suggesting that, I hasten to add, but it is a common argument from the church. Dawkins devotes a full chapter to it in The God Delusion.

Emma :-D :-D :-D