General Chat

The other ancient branches of the Christian church are the Coptic church in Egyt, Iraq and other parts of the Middle East and the Russian/Greek/Armenian Orthodox churches spread out from Mostar to Vladivostock.

90% of the priests in these branches are married and as with the Anglican church the priest's family are a lynch pin of the community.

The Catholic church is disintegrating and on of the reasons is the adherence to tired custom with no religious justification. Of course RC priests should marry - it would be far better than the current "housekeeper" arrangements.

Unfortunately in his years at the top of Vatican admin Benedict has packed the Cardinals with ultras determined not only that nothing should change but the wheel should be set in reverse. The current West African Cardinal who is one of the favourites is also one of the most rigid in his thinking.

Sic transit gloria mundi.

SueMaid - I am talking of sexual abuse against minors from all sources, not just priests

"It is in our nature to be highly sexual, hooked on drugs and other stimulants, agrressive towards our neighbours, liars, cheats etc. That is "natural" man."

it's most certainly not in my nature or in the nature of anyone I know

It is in our nature to be highly sexual, hooked on drugs and other stimulants, agrressive towards our neighbours, liars, cheats etc. That is "natural" man.

Civilisation teaches us rules of conduct to survive. To love, to help - but usually in a reciprocal way. If you are nice to me, I will be nice to you. Also, prison eventually awaits unless wilder instincts are curbed. And your mother!!!!!

The love of a priest or a nun for Christ should become an absolutely pure love (agape). And usually it is just that and I have met literally hundreds of lovely leaders within the Roman Catholic church who just shine with goodness. Celibacy is something they feel is absolutely right for them and their all-consuming vocation.

God bless Cardinal O'Brien and all the other great Roman Catholics. And I am a simple non-conforming Protestant :-)

El_Tigre, I am a member of the Church of Scotland and for their ministers to marry is common place, and I am in favour of everyone no matter what faith they belong to having the right to marry.

Why not let them marry ? Where does it say in the Bible that priests were not allowed to marry? Were all the apostles unmarried/celibate? very unlikely in Palestine. We are not even sure if Jesus did not have a girlfriend, e.g. Magdalene. He was a young man around 30, in his culture men would marry.

Some might admit that marriage is the best policy but only after they try everything else first.

Generally speaking, no generation has found life tolerable without narcotics, stimulants or marriage.

you re so right Geordie - it's not in the nature of human beings to be celibate - if it were the human race would have died out almost before it started

I think you will find the figures are much higher than 4% - try around 25%.

The majority of priests would not even consider abusing a child. The priests who do are paedophiles who possibly would not be able to maintain a sexual relationship with adults anyway. I don't think it has got anything to do with celibacy.

Perhaps some people like to see arguments before deciding what stance to take, JLC Bob Tigre.

My view is celibacy is a wonderful state for any professing Christian, and should be applauded. But, also, if someone is deeply in love (like Thornbirds) to a partner who is of a like mine regarding Christianity, the two should follow a ministry together and raise a family if they feel it is the right thing to do in God's eyes.

The Cardinal is spot on for me on subject of priest's marrying , but no signs of his being shaky on the fundamentals of Christian behaviour (like suicide, euthenasia being a sin).

I just can't understand how a man can stay celibate all his life regardless of faith. They are males with the same instincts as any other male therefore it's no wonder they have turned their attentions elsewhere for satisfaction. I say allow them to marry if they so desire.

GP

96% of the population never experienced sexual abuse? how did you come up with that figure - far too low

C`mon, OneFootInTheGrave... You posed a question, but as of yet you've not given us your slant on it. :-)

Not a politician by any chance are you? :-D

In A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse by Thomas Plante, a psychiatrist specializing in abuse counseling and considered an expert on clerical abuse, he states "approximately 4% of priests during the past half century (and mostly in the 1960s and 1970s) have had a sexual experience with a minor." According to Newsweek magazine, the figure is similar to that in the rest of the adult population.

Yes, I wickied that as emotion can overtake facts. But 4% is a shocking statistic. Just thankful that 96% of general population have never in their lives had sexual experiences with a minor.

Cardinal Keith O'Brien interview:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21552628

i thought it was only a recent thing
remember reading about married popes at some stage

just had a quick google
http://marriage.about.com/od/historyofmarriage/ss/marriedpopes.htm

Personally I couldn't care less. I just think if you join a cult following you should abide by the club rules.
If you find you disagree with the T&C`s, resign and join another social club which has better offerings. Simples aint it.

Or, why not go it alone? It has been known you know, you dont HAVE to be a member of a cult to have a life, and beliefs.

FA. Yes, absolutley. Many priests in the Old Testament were married. It is recorded that one of the most important Pharisees (Nicodemus, John Chapter 3 verse 3) gave his daughter a wedding present worth £7 million. A jewel encrusted bed. He was not only a rabbi, he was a teacher of the law (what we would now call an Archbishop). And he was a family man who made his huge fortune from controlling the supply of holy water in Herod's Temple.

There was no stigma about remaining single and celibate in Old Testament Judaism . And I think there was stigma in the C of E 50 years ago. Parishioners preferred to "invite" a Vicar with a wife and family. Think that still happens a bit in some parishes, circuits and other denominations.

In the early Christian church in 1st century, they had to be 100% committed and very mobile. And they were begging for money and food. Extremely difficult to have a wife and children starving many miles away. Also, Christians were frequently sought out and put to death. And so were wives and families. :-(

The original priests the Levites married and had children for generation they were still allowed to enter into the "holiest of holys". A man is a man surely its the natural order of things? Lest they get tempted and fall into sin!

I hope you will permit me to quote St Paul on this subject first. He laid down what are still considered to be Christian rules. Not rules for all but rules for committed Christians.
"To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9 RSV)

The apostle Paul (and other key figures among God's people, including Elijah, John the Baptist and Jesus Christ) were not married, but Paul taught neither for, or against, marriage. What Paul taught regarding marriage was a matter of what was best for an individual's righteous life as a follower of Christ Jesus.

So opposition to marriage for priests and nuns comes from Church tradition, not Pauline teaching. But many Church leaders and workers (not only in Roman Catholicism) feel it is better they are married to Christ alone.

She was positively fuming for ages. She was a very large lady who was not the best tempered person at the best of times. She used to go bright red with fury and that look framed by her cowl still puts the fear in me. ;-) :-D :-D