General Chat

Brenda Sorry I wasnt suggesting you was, it was the vibe I had picked up on, as for the rest of your post I agree 100 % :-D

I think there are many methods of education being utilised in the UK.

There are some very innovative approaches - some of which have been around for some time.

But that is not the issue. A percentage of pupils have become disengaged, disinterested, disenfranchised, and one of the biggest factors is that they are receiving neither the support nor the discipline that they should at home.

As pointed out earlier on this thread (I think it was Roy) we are now seeing a second generation coming through the education system whose parents have been brought up in a society that is more fearful of meting out discipline and is also far more materialistic and disposable.

These parents do not have the respect that was once instilled at a very early age and so how can they be expected to pass those core values onto their offspring.

The teachers are not to blame. The parents most certainly are!

Go into any school (primary or secondary) and throughout the course of the day you will hear at least one child say "You can't tell me off or do that because I know my rights".

It is as it is carried out now and has been since it's inception but it is only one way of learning.

It was the method of education that was suited those who were financing and debating it and they were the ones who were in need of the workforce it was intended to provide.

The needs of society, the structure of society has changed radically in that time but no other method of education has ever been properly explored.

Isn't formal education pedagogic by definition?

We have had a pedagogic method of education in place for nearly two hundred years now, ever since institutionalised education was introduced to teach a more compliant working class to suit industrialised society.

Society has moved on in two hundred years, we are no longer heavily industrialised. Maybe the radical change that was implemented to accommodate the change from agrarian society to an industrialised regime needs to be matched again by a different approach to learning.

Having, I listened to the head of the school and a couple of parents comments about what happened, I thought how well they all expressed themselves, teacher is suspended, head is looking into the matter, he has spoken to the parents, all as it should be. Having been Chair of Governors for a good few years, had this happened at the school I was Governor at. it sounds like everything is being done to resolve the issue. We don't know the state of mind of the teacher, perhaps he/she has problems at home, nothing to do with school, perhaps the children are all great kids, and the teacher flipped, he/she may be under some strain, but if that's the case they need time away from school.

A teacher at my sons school, once did something to my son that I wasn't comfortable with, I went to see the head, who told me that my son could be "rather talkative" I agreed wholeheartedly with him, he then said that I could have no idea what it was like to be in a class, where children were talkative, yes I could actually, one of my foster children went to a school where normal behaviour was to throw a chair through a window, and I often visited, he then said that the teacher I wasn't happy with, had just returned from having a second breakdown, and sometimes the boys got too much, to say my gasp was flabbered was an understatement, if she wasn't able to handle a class of 12 year olds without grabbing them, then she should still be on sick leave.

Caring for children isn't for everyone, I know some wonderful teachers, who deal with the most difficult children, I have been head butted, bitten and bruised by some of the children I have had in my charge, but never have I resorted to hitting or taping there mouths shut, yes I've been taken to the edge, but never gone over it, if I thought I might, I'd have got a new job.

I've seen too may children scarred for life for being abused, either physically or mentally, discipline is one thing beatings are another.

Sharron, i never said you had,

My point is and was that you can discipline children without violence,

You can also discipline adults without violence,

They are two separete things

We are all in a system that we are compelled to live in and not all areas of our society suit everyone, Thats life

Roy

I was educated in Scotland in the 1950's and when you misbehaved, teachers used the tawse to point out the error of your ways. It did not matter whether you were a boy or a girl, most times it was boys who were the culprits - I would add this was at secondary school as I do not recall the tawse being used at my primary school.

You held your hands out placing one hand on top of the other, depending on the severity of what you had done, you got between one and six strokes on the palm of the hands. One thing you tended not to do, was tell your mum or dad. as the likelihood was they would give you a good slap or a severe telling off.

I think, if anything, it did not make me fear my teachers, it made me realise who was in charge and that being disruptive was not acceptable.

However although the use of the tawse was acceptable at the time I was at school, one thing that would not have been acceptable, even back then, would be a teacher taping up pupils mouths :-|

Lack of discipline, respect, and manners, is often a problem in this day and age and sadly is not just restricted to teenagers.

I work voluntarily one day a week in a local Junior school with children aged from 4+ to 11. I see the children at various times during the day. They are all well behaved because they are well and correctly disciplined. It can sometimes be difficult for teachers to control a class of unruly disruptive 10 year old's. Unless you have been in this situation it is impossible to understand the stress of teaching unruly children - especially if there's inadequate support from the school hierarchy or from parents.

One could argue that today's parents who were disciplined but not physically punished as children, had good education and have still grown up with respect for their elders. They may now have a good job, and are able to discipline their own children effectively. Maybe there are some lessons to be learned.

The parents of disruptive children should certainly be informed and explained that they need to discipline them for misbehaving. A teacher should never physically hurt the children in his/ her care. EVER.  

Hayley

I am not saying its a matter of class..rich or poor...it is society and the way children learn to get their own way.
They nearly all sit with mobile phones or tablets ,not much conversation except with their peers,grown up before their time...talking about my own great granddaughters now 10/11.and behaving like 15/16 year olds..of course they can't all play out as we did.
My granddaughter told me that one of the mothers went up to school to complain about a teacher in reception class who looked down the back of a child's pants to see if she had to be changed...would she like the child to be in dirty pants till home time?
That teacher was suspended for a while.

All I say is it's gone too far.I love children,but it is very noticeable to my generation that the respect isn't there in a lot of cases to make them into polite people.

Roy, I have not written anything on here that relates to your children, just children in general from, I hope, the point of view of the children who are bewildered and frightened, or were so, by a system that they are compelled to be a part of.

A.S. Neill succeeded in turning out well rounded successful individuals by his radical methods of progressive education which gave his students a great deal more autonomy than they are, or ever have been in mainstream education.

This was after he had been a disillusioned teacher who was so appalled by the brutality of mainstream methods that he studied the methods of Homer Lane who had had tremendous results in helping badly psychologically abused boys in America.

I think some are being quick to judge theses children home lifes without knowing the facts or their parents skills as parents, it could be that they all come from very nice respected familes, why does everyone always suspect that their parents sit on bums drinking cheap cider watching large screen TV's wearing dirty tracksuits, do you not remember the riots from a couple of years ago and some of so called professional people in the dock, or how many times do you hear about middle class chilren that went to school with the royals with a drug problem.

How many parents of these poor children have actual received a call from school previously concerning their childs behaviour and either offered their upmost support or been advised them to call back when Jeremy Kyle has finished? We just don't know. I am a child of the 60's went to school in the 70's I knew what teachers I could play up and wouldnt dare, I also knew what would happen if my Mum was told and also remember her outraged when she saw the black and purple imprint of a pump on the top fo my leg.

~Lynda~

5 Mar 2014 09:51

"If you teach, or look after children in any capacity, and you feel the need to hit out, or tape up mouths, look for another job.

Bottom line is keep your hands to yourself, if you want to hit or abuse someone, pick on someone your own size, If you want to hit children, expect a knock on the door."

I don't think hitting or abusing a person of any age is actually acceptable to be honest.

Again, do we have all the facts in this instance?
And also, again, looking after a couple of children in the home environment is very different compared to a room of 30 screaming, running, abusive kids.

Classrooms are not particularly pleasant places in many cases these days and the cosy image of quiet classes with all children dilligently carrying out their tasks is ill-informed and pure fantasy.

Who owns the past? It cannot be reversed.

I have set the cat among the pigeons haven't I?
I do believe a lot of what Errol says is right and think it is a hard job these days controlling children who are left to their own devices much more by their parents than years ago when everyone sat round the table for meals and their problems were discussed.

My cousin who was a very good teacher in inner city Leeds left her job after trying to deal with big lads who towered over her and threatened to bring their mates with baseball bats.she was heading for a nervous breakdown.

I don't condone using methods that we were subjected to,but this PC has gone too far.

A lot of children IMHO have far too many material things and can tend to be more demanding than we were...and know the system...not saying all,but there are some who can wrap their parents round their fingers who give in to give them what they want and life isn't like that.

I saw this happening a long time ago when my daughters 4 were at school and they were called the £2.99 kids as she'd bought them clothes from a big chain and not a Niki or such....know this is not to do with punishment but shows the difference in society today.

I don't condone harsh punishment and wouldn't like to go back to the ways we were treated,but I certainly wouldn't like to be a school teacher now as they have to be so careful not to step out of line.

Sharron, I refer you to my earlier post.

My children were disciplined at home and we have never laid a finger on any of our children,

Why do people think that discipline and violance are one and the same thing.

And punishment is the wrong word,

You have two choices

1, Do nothing and nothing will be passed on to the next generation

or

2, Do something to instill discipline and respect in children

1, IMO this situation existes today because we have now had a couple of generations who have now had children that never recieved any parenting skills from their parents

This has been a downward spiral ever since they abolished corporal punishmen, Whilst i did agree at the time that corporal punishmen was wrong and i didn't want it for my children i think the system has gone wrong because of the "unintended consequences"

It was expected that parents where capable of teaching children how to behave along with respect, responsibility and keeping discipline, It appears not all parents are capable,

Roy

If you teach, or look after children in any capacity, and you feel the need to hit out, or tape up mouths, look for another job.

Bottom line is keep your hands to yourself, if you want to hit or abuse someone, pick on someone your own size, If you want to hit children, expect a knock on the door.

Poor Children must be traumatised I do hope the teacher faces a criminal charge

But how are they committing any offence if they are being compliant with the opinions of their parents?

Punishment

noun

The infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence.