General Chat

I think you need to consider the Human Rights act as a whole, rather than the obviously silly uses to which it is sometimes put. We don't really think that we need a human rights act I suspect , because we are a democracy and generally have a reasonable record of fair treatment of our citizens ( and others) . Not all the countries in Europe have that perhaps? and so the human rights act is needed?

What are the directives that have benefitted us? I am not able to name them but there must have been some?

which is it

"Green spaces should be protected - we oppose excessive
housing development, wind farms and HS2"

or

"develop shale gas"

I am not certain by any means that you protect green spaces by developing shale gas!

I'm not saying that anybody is making this accusation; but can I just point out that not liking the EU does not make you a racist. I don't like the EU; but I don't have anything against people who live in other european countries. I have nothing against my next door neighbours; but I wouldn't want to move in with them.

Thank you Sheila :-D
Have edited. That's what you get for 'trawling' rather than finishing off the decorating :-\

AnninGlos - my original (reported) post said (I do wish people would read carefully)...

"um just a small point...people often use the term Nazi incorrectly. It actually is a term that comes from the words Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, in other words National Socialist Party, the political party of which Hitler was eventually leader.
It does not mean German, or thug, or secret police etc etc
Hitler actually achieved a great deal of good (of course I am not saying that he also was not behind a good deal of evil) and it could be argued that he was somewhat left wing.
National Socialism in its various forms does tend to be somewhat left wing."

I believe the majority of human kind has the tendency for racism if something impacts upon them personally. Everyone NEEDS someone/something to blame for perceived injustices. It is human nature.

I can cite injustices in my own and my family's lives which I can point a very firm finger at bias towards immigrants for. When a medical services provider has to have on call interpreters in 50+ different languages in one London health authority that impacts on their ability to serve more patients. You wait ages for a referral and look for someone to blame!

I am pro Palestine, therefore anti Zionist but not anti semitic. Not every shout of 'racist' means the person it's aimed at is a bad person, there are degrees.

Being pro-Palestine does not mean having to be anti-Zionist, surely?

Tricky term 'racist' SuperCrutch, you are pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist, but I would imagine you are not anti all Israelis or anti all Jews. It is the policies ( or ideology) of a cetain number of a certain nationality that you object to, that doesn't make you racist.

We all look for someone to blame when things go wrong ( edit , not quite what I want to say, we all find someone to blame is closer, that could be the system, or a person, or a group of people who have significnt influence ) , ...but I am not sure I would term that 'racism' , I would reserve that for labelling a whole race as 'inferior' or 'threatening' based only on ones experience of a small number or even just one person of that race.

Errol Sheep (you may know this) for several years now there has been a very concerted effort by some Israeli and pro-Israel factions to identify pro-Palestine and anti-Zionism as 'anti-Semitic' and in fact they are achieving some success in shutting down dissent against Israeli policies ... for instance at academic institutions ... very sad day for truth and free speech

as for Hitler and the whole left/right thing this chart is very eloquent ... the one at about the middle of the page with the red blobs on it

http://politicalcompass.org/analysis2

Hitler was more 'left-wing' than Thatcher :-)
(because that refers to how they wanted ownership and markets to operate)

he was also more authoritarian ... although not by a lot ...

Stalin was very 'left-wing' because of state ownership, but very authoritarian at the same time

Gandhi and Thatcher were near-opposites

JoonieCloonie is absolutely correct in mentioning the 'anti semitic' lobbyists. They wish to include ALL Jewish sects who are anti Zionist and label them anti semitic. That smacks of desperation to justify acts in Palestinian territories which no right minded person should be comfortable with.

I lived in Germany for 2 years and even 30 years post war I still met some Germans who loathed the UK and our allies and weren't afraid to express their opinions.

Does any country really move on? or do they continue conflict if they believe they were wronged?

As for the EU I don't wish to be any part of it for many reasons but mainly loss of self government and having our laws (some of the most longstanding in the world) challenged and overturned for absolutely no good reason other than the often misused Human Rights Act.

JoonieCloonie - yes, that has been well documented and thank you. But the point I was making was that being pro-Palestine does not automatically mean anti-Zionist.

As for Hitler and/or National Socialism, I do wish people would read what I actually said instead of what they narrow-mindedly want to read (and subsequently try and report me for). I think I have seen your link before but it is not a "set in stone" scenario because there are so many different factors, some subjective and some objective.
I still maintain that despite the more talked-about aspects of Hitler's life, he did do a lot of good, and certainly perceived good, for the German public in the 30s.
In fact, if he had not helped to pull the nation out of the post WWI quagmire it found itself in, Europe today could be a very different place indeed.
As I said earlier, I am by no means applauding the evil he perpetrated.
The terms "left" and "right" are not necessarily exact, measurable terms - they are more relative terms.
You can say that an object is three inches to the left or three inches to the right but you cannot say that a political party or belief is three notches either way.
By modern standards, Hitler could very much be termed as left wing (comparably speaking) and is certainly not as right wing as, say, our current Labour party, for instance.

speaking of Hitler, and I'm someone who lived through WW2 - it is my considered opinion that he did not have a good bone in his body - he was born evil and he died evil - unfortunately not soon enough

AnnCardiff ... even a stopped clock and all that :-)

good things can be done by bad people, and even for bad reasons

we could probably even think of something good Margaret Thatcher did sometime ...

Errol Sheep, yes, and the left-right division is set at politicalcompass by British standards ... which confuse people in the US mightily, whose idea of the political 'centre' for instance is not where most people in the world measure political things by and people in most places would call very right-wing!

at least, though, it makes an effort to separate the economic 'left-right' aspects from the personal freedom aspects, which is another confusion that arises particularly in the US as well

like Naziism, the BNP would fall to the 'left' of most other parties economically, but rank very high on the 'authoritarian' scale

in fact ...

http://politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

'Similarly, the extreme left identifies a strong degree of state economic control, which may also be accompanied by liberal or authoritarian social policies. It's muddled thinking to simply describe the likes of the British National Party as "extreme right". The truth is that on issues like health, transport, housing, protectionism and globalisation, their economics are left of Labour, let alone the Conservatives. It's in areas like police power, military power, school discipline, law and order, race and nationalism that the BNP's real extremism - as authoritarians - is clear. It's easy to see how the term national socialism came into being. The uncomfortable reality is that much of their support comes from former Labour voters.'

there they have it :-)

edit, I should add they also say:

'The UK Independence Party might be described as BNP Lite, with a more well-heeled social base of generally older hardline Tories unhappy with their former party's drift in a more socially liberal, Europe-friendly direction. Like the BNP, UKIP is sympathetic to the reintroduction of capital punishment. UKIP's economics, however, are well to the right.'

That is very often the view of older people who have lived through WWII because they cannot take an unbiased viewpoint for obvious reasons.

However, there are actually a great many good things that we should consider (just to stress that I in no way support nor condone the attrocities carried out during WWII by all nations).

Again, I am reminded of Monty Python's Life Of Brian...

What did the "Nazis" ever do for us?

The Autobahn.

Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.

And the welfare programmes!

Oh yes... welfare programmes, you remember what the country used to be like.

All right, I'll grant you that the Autobahns and welfare reform are two things that the Nazis have done...

And space exploration...

Well yes obviously space exploration... space exploration goes without saying. But apart from the Autobahn, welfare reform and space exploration...

VW Beetles... innovations in film... medical leaps forward... Doc Marten boots

Errol Sheep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTKn1aSOyOs

(warning, the humour is very black but the sentiment about Nazis is very serious ... the world 'owes' them many very bad things ... but uses their accomplishments nonetheless)

reputable scientists the world over agree that 'Nazi research' should never be cited or used

but imagine if everyone said we could not use the Autobahn ...


btw Tom Lehrer is ethnically Jewish

and his song offers an unusual tribute from the US to the British victims of WWII which is something people in the US know all too little about

There has been so much political rhetoric over that past few weeks. I wonder how many who voted UKIP actually read the manifesto (before Nigel ripped it up I am reminded of a quote "Always do your best. What you plant now, you will harvest later". Og Mandio

Paula, it doesn't matter whether people genuinely voted for UKIP or it was a protest vote it has shaken the main parties which can only be a good thing.

Manifestos are usually laughable and only serve to sway voters with promises that aren't or cannot be delivered. They evolve during the lifetime of the party in power and quite honestly I don't trust any one of them.

I personally dislike Farage's public persona but I do appreciate that he provides a great contrast to the status quo :-D

Yes I agree. It's certainly been a wake up call and hopefully politicians of all persuasions will take this on board, and actually work together and not continue with the stupid mind games and party political bun fights.

Whether it's a protest or genuine vote the outcome seems to have rattled a few cages. So well and good.

It seems that Europe' voters have turned towards the far right parties, surly there is a message I personally like so many am among the disillusioned and dissatisfied.

UKIP have been a very useful "fly in the ointment"

Thanks for that JoonieCloonie - will watch it later.
Incidentally, I shall be in St Austell soon.

Paula - I think many people do not read manifestos before voting.

AnnCardiff - hardly a "fly in the ointment" when you consider the results ! lolol