General Chat

Many reports allege that the three muppets from Westminster who made these promises, pushed the panic button on the basis of one rogue poll, and that they did not fully realise the consequences for the rest of the UK - of the promises they made to the Scottish Parliament.

I view most modern politicians with some cynicism, and at the back of my mind something tells me that these three muppets must have realised the furore this would cause in other regions of the UK, they knew full well what they were doing, because they wanted to use the outcome of the referendum to each of their their own party's advantage.

I say that because the arguments, almost immediately after the result of the referendum was announced, rapidly moved from what further powers should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament, to arguments about each of the three main parties - own political ideologies of the kind of UK they would like to see ;-)

The trouble Dermot is that England is a country of laws and democracy. That was established during the events 1640-1688. Unlike the style in Scotland political decisions cannot be hatched secretly without authority and then bounced onto the Commons. It is just this style that caused the demise of G Brown. It is patently unfair to continue the Barnett funding formula and not fix West Lothian if Scotland is to have SIG additional powers Inc tax. As it is Milliband seems determined to govern England with a majority based on Scottish MPs who have little or nothing to do in Scotland. There has to be linkage as otherwise sad experience tells us England - by far the largest and strongest country in the UK - will remain the milch cow for the others without any voice of its own. The intentions of Brun/Milliband will not pass the Commons without an overall deal. If Milliband persists in refusing this then he will get hammered in 2015 and the Tories will impose whatever deal they want in England as well as extending Scottish powers. Better together but not at any price.

If there is no devo max in full and to the agreed timetable then there will be problems in Scotland and I don't mean just a few letters to the newspapers. The pledge (as the three leaders called it) must be honoured. I voted NO on the basis that it would be. Yes, they have the right wing, UKIP and even Boris threatening to have their say but they knew that would be the case when they played the desperation card. Now deliver. As for the unionist disorder in Glasgow the other night that was nothing more than the usual enthusiastic display of Orange "loyalty".

It was very interesting listening to a Canadian retired politician being interviewed on our radio this morning.

Jean Charest was a Cabinet Minister in the Federal Government at the time of the 1980 Quebec referendum, then later became Premier of the province of Quebec from 2003 to 2012. So he was in government during both the Quebec referenda

His take on the Scottish referendum reminded him of the 1980 Quebec one, and he extrapolated from our experiences then to what might be expected now ............

the 1980 referendum was won by the NO side, 60% to 40% (compare to Thursday's 55 - 45)

It was then followed by several years during which the Yes supporters blamed the No voters for being too weak, too scared, too intimidated, and too "bought off" by promises from Ottawa to vote Yes

Huge bullying tactics, intimidation, etc at meetings that began to be held from about 1990 on the possibility of another referendum, which was held in 1995.


His take on Scotland? ............. he expects to see similar tactics in Scotland, and another referendum in 10 years.



Meanwhile, the Canadian Federal Government gave into every demand made by the Quebec government during the 15 years, attempting to continually appease the sovereigntists so they would not again hold a referendum to separate

And all the rest of us in all the other provinces grudgingly agreed .........................

It finally was realised after 1995 that all the give to Quebec was unnecessary, that they just kept asking for more and more because they knew the Federal government would give in.

When the Feds stopped ..................... most non-sovereigntist Quebecers just shrugged their shoulders, and got on with life.


Unfortunately, Charest could not see, and was not willing to predict, what might happen to Scotland and the UK when the next referendum is held ............. just that there would be another one.

There's going to be trouble, I can feel it in my water!!

Joan.

Cameron had no authority for the devomax pledge. Now he is back in London he finds he cannot move on without Commons consent which means action on Barnett and west lothian. Milliband won't agree so Mexican standoff. Brown won't wipe the floor with anybody. The whole mess will drag on to May 2015 without resolution. By panic and accident rather than malice before Cameron has impaled Milliband on Morton's fork.

In a way I'm glad to see Brown is doing something bordering on the useful, but political heavyweight?

Not any more, and many of us will never forgive him for what he allowed to happen to the economy either so he will be under close scrutiny.

I listened to the latest speech by ex prime minister Gordon Brown, in it he said that a Resolution signed by David Cameron, Nick Clegg, Ed Miliband and himself, will be placed in the House of Commons on Monday. The Resolution commits all three main parties at Westminster to a timetable of action for the further devolution of powers to the Scottish Parliament, including draft legislation for a new Scotland Bill by the end of January 2015.

In his speech he also said that the promises made by the leaders of the three main parties at Westminster, ahead of the Scottish independence referendum, on change and further devolution, will be delivered - as he is only a backbench MP I don't know how he can guarantee this - but I do know he will fight his corner with compassion and vigour.

He was never my favourite politician, that said, not only is he a political heavyweight, he can be a powerful and compassionate orator, whereas, Cameron, Clegg, and Miliband are political lightweights.

It will be interesting to watch the exchanges between all of them on this issue, especially if there is any attempt by the three main party leaders to renegade on the promises they made during the referendum, if they try to do this, for a better phrase - he will literally wipe the floor with them.

The arguments made during the referendum were meant to keep the UK united - it appears that they have left the UK disunited :-S

Liz I hope that the cities in England, Wales and Ireland
do get more control over things in their area.
People who live in these cities know what is required,
those in Westminster do not imo.

Emma :-)

Nice to still have Scotland in the UK fold. This whole thing has stirred up more than just Scotland's try at independence, now there is talk of big cities gaining more control over things.

Fine to have change as long as it is positive change and not two steps backwards.


Lizx

any excuse will do Sylvia, whether it's political or the football, "Many of the protesters, who are mostly aged between 20 and 40, appear to be quite intoxicated".

"when the beer's in the wit's out" as they say. Maybe it would have been better to have had the results announced on a week night not on a Friday?

if the online reports are to be believed ....................


it seems to have turned a wee bit nasty in Glasgow this evening :-(


why do the thugs have to come out?

Just heard on our radio news that Salmond is stepping down as Leader of the party, and as First Minister.



AnnC ..................

I don't think "it" is over .......................


the urge of the separatists might quieten down for some time, but they will be heard again.

It might not be for 10 years, or 50 years



I'm using our experience in Canada ....................... Quebec separatists got into power twice, and we had a referendum in 1980 and then another in 1995


that's 15 years

The Parti Quebecois got back into power in 2012, and we soon heard talk about separation again.

Luckily, the leader Pauline Marois had to go to the polls again in April this year, and they were soundly defeated


that was 17 years




maybe the Scots will not be holding another referendum until after a lot of us are dead .......... but it will come.



Unfortunately

Now all of them will get into a cat fight over Barnett and MP voting rights at Westminster. There is not a snowballs chance of any element of "devomax" becoming law before the 2015 General Election. Labour are not going to agree on west lothian, English back benchers on Barnett and so on. Ukip leaves Dave little wiggle room. Quite how a Milliband govt would work with the Tories holding all the key English powers would no doubt be entertaining and even a thing of wonder. However such a govt would be far from stable. Salmond has dealt the union a near mortal blow and recovery is far from assured. Any commitment to yet another referendum (EU) looks more daft by the day.

Things got a bit daft here in Oz.

Lots of articles showing the Oz flag with a "possible new" Union flag...... all horrible.

:-(

Turnout shown as 84.5% - thought it would have been higher

Budgie <3 nice to feel that you and others feel
that way :-)

By the way thank you for the help you gave me yesterday :-)

Great to hear this ...
We in England need you Scotland, "United we stand, divided we fall".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs

I am also delighted with the result :-D :-D

Emma

I'm pleased we're still united. :-D
Living quite close to the border we always like to think of ourselves as Kith and Kin.

Sterling has gone up in value, we'll be stronger in Europe and now Westminster SHOULD listen to the people more!

I don't like opinion polls :-| ...find they're seldom right and imho can sway voters.