General Chat

Hey Shirley, SylvialnCanada and thanks hmm the plot thickens

?????????? possible marriage fro John Firman and Sarah Ann

Marriages Jun 1870 (>99%)

Firman John London C 1c 145
FISHER Sarah Ann London C 1c 145


from ancestry ......

England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973

Name: John Firman
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 15 May 1870
Marriage Place: Queenborough, Kent, England
Spouse: Sarah Ann Fisher
FHL Film Number: 1866564
Reference ID: item 8 cn 6


Record only, so can't check the image.



It looks as if Sarah might have died, or left John Firman :-)

Here he is in 1891 ...

1891 Census

Name: John Firman
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Harriett Firman
Gender: Male
Where born: Queenborough, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Queenborough
Ecclesiastical parish: Queenborough
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: Sheppey
ED, institution, or vessel: 1

Piece: 720
Folio: 7
Page Number: 7

John Firman 46 Fisherman
Harriett Firman 43 b.ca 1848, Queenborough
William Firman 17 b.ca 1874, Queenborough, Fisherman
Harriett M Firman 13
Isabel Firman 10
Winnie E Firman 4

Address:- 65 High Street


and also with Harriet in 1881

Name Age
John Firman 36
Harriet Firman 33
John Firman 9
William Firman 7
Lizzie Firman 5
Harriet M. Firman 3
Isabel Firman

Address:- 65 High Street


The address in 1871 was 73 High Street

and this looks like his marriage in 1877 ..........

Marriages Jun 1877 (>99%)

FIELD Harriet Sheppey 2a 1267
FIRMAN John Sheppey 2a 1267



NO ................. Sarah Ann Firman died in 1876, so the one who married John Firman was not the one who married John Keir

Deaths Sep 1876 (>99%)

FIRMAN Sarah Ann 31 Sheppey 2a 454

Now !!! Wonder if she had been married before note living in Queenborough

1871 census

Engalnd Wales &Scotland Census Transcription
High Street, Queenborough, Sheppey, Kent, England


John Firman Head - Male 26 1845 occ mariner - Kent, England
Sarah Ann Firman Wife - Female 25 1846 - Kent, England

Both born Queenborough

So, in the right area to have met John Keir

Here is the 1881 census Chris

Scotland Census Transcription
330 & 332, 330, Grays Inn Road, St Pancras, Pancras, London, England

Learn more

Print transcription View image Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Richard Griffin Head Married Male 52 1829 Porter At Hospital Hoddesdon, Hertfordshire, England Transcription
Sarah Griffin Wife Married Female 35 1846 Matron At Hospital Pimlico, Middlesex, England Transcription
Edith Griffin Daughter Single Female 5 1876 Scholar St Pancras, Middlesex, England Transcription
Sarah Dyson Servant Widow Female 29 1852 Nurse Warwickshire, England Transcription
Emma Youlton Servant Single Female 16 1865 Nurse Bow, Middlesex, England Transcription
Harrietta Moneypenny Patient Single Female 24 1857 Governess (P) Ireland Transcription
Alice Long Patient Single Female 24 1857 Governess Norwich, Norfolk, England Transcription
Caroline Cooper Patient Single Female 18 1863 - Paddington, Middlesex, England Transcription
Eliza Futcher Patient Single Female 27 1854 Domestic Serv Salisbury, Wiltshire, England Transcription
Isabel Carnaby Patient Single Female 4 1877 - Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England Transcription
Eliza Howard Patient Single Female 23 1858 Dressmaker Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Transcription
Kate Engisch Patient Single Female 18 1863 Dressmaker St Pancras, Middlesex, England Transcription
Benjamin Luff Patient Single Male 6 1875 - Islington, Middlesex, England Transcription
Thomas Western Patient Married Male 26 1855 Sawyer Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England Transcription
Thomas Molland Patient Married Male 41 1840 Police Constable Devon, England

John Keir Patient Married Male 29 1852 Dock Labourer Sheerness, Kent, England >>>>>>>

George Robins Patient Single Male 26

Does say married

Hello AnnCardiff, DetEcTive, Shirley
Thanks for all you idIeas and help, I can't find a copy I thought that downloaded of the 1881 census stating John William as married. the nearest I could find through freecen was the two possible Sarah Ann Firman, Edward Lyons, Ann Withers all with the same volume number and page number the spelling seems to be irevalant as in the '61 census but the right family and yes John William's father John was a carpenter

Yes I will have to order a D/C

With research interests in the Dartford reg, Medway and Sheppey, I tend to agree with Shirley. There werent really any docks in the Dartford area even then. Both Sheppey and Chatham were home to the RN Dockyards even if he wasnt involved, it seems unusual for him to in a St Pancras hospital

It could be that he never married.

the family on the 1861 census

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Omitted All the Names at time of Collection, 2, Sheppy Street, Minster, Sheppey, Kent, England


John Care Head Married Male 40 1821 Carpenter Scotland Transcription
Caroline Care Wife Married Female 36 1825 Carpenter Wife Kent, England Transcription
John Care Son Unmarried Male 9 1852 Scholar Kent, England Transcription
Eliza Care Daughter Unmarried Female 7 1854 - Kent, England Transcription
Walter Care Son Unmarried Male 3 1858 - Kent, England Transcription
Donal Care Son Unmarried Male 2 1859 - Kent, England Transcription
Edward Care Son Unmarried Male 0 1861 Infant Kent, England

am not convinced that John Carr is the right man

John Keir was born in Sheppey and died in the Medway area Both areas had /have extensive docks and big labour working force

he is described as a Dock Labourer on the 1881 census

Dartford and those areas are some way from Medway and the isle of Sheppey . I live in the area so am familiar with it

it would seem you havent bought the certs which is the way to go

This could be Edward Dennis in 1881 which gives his wife's name as Hannah. They did tend to shorten Hannah to Ann or Anna

Name: Hannah Lyons
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: E. Dennis Lyons
Gender: Female
Where born: Crayford, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Hamlet
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 1 Half Heath St
Marital Status: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Dress Maker
Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub registration district: Mile End Old Town, Western
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 475
Folio: 87
Page Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
E. Dennis Lyons 28
Hannah Lyons 27
Elleanor Lyons 7
Margaret Lyons 4
Jesse Lyons

E. Dennis Lyons 28
Hannah Lyons 27
Elleanor Lyons 7
Margaret Lyons 4
Jesse Lyons

1911
Name: Hannah Lyons
Age in 1911: 59
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Crayford, Kent
Civil Parish: Northfleet
Search Photos: Search for 'Northfleet' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address: 13 Five Ash Road, Gravesend, Northfleet, Kent
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 39
Estimated Marriage Year: 1872 <<<< estimated
Registration district: Strood
Registration District Number: 45
Sub-registration district: Northfleet
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household schedule number: 178
Piece: 3841

Dennis Lyons 60
Hannah Lyons 59
William Lyons 29
Frederick Lyons 26
Katherine Lyons 19
Joseph Lyons 16
.........

On that basis, John Keir (Carr?) married Sarah Ann Firman

For the purpose of elimination, his marrige is spelt Carr. Are you happy that its the right person?

Marriages Mar 1873 (>99%)
CARR John William Dartford 2a 435
FIRMAN Sarah Ann Dartford 2a 435
Lyons Edward Dennis Dartford 2a 435
WILDERS Anne Dartford 2a 435

The only way to discover his cause of death, is to purchase his DC. Shirley & Ann gave you the details to order it.

sorry for wrong spelling Shirley, yes that is all true, I haven't found what caused John's death, exactly whom was his wife and if they had issue, the other stuff is about other information from when I was last a paid up member, thank you :-)

birth
Dec 1851

Keir John William Sheppey 5 508


death
Mar 1882
Keir John William 30 Medway 2a 338

John Keir

England and Wales Marriage Registration Index

Name John Keir
Event Type Marriage
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year 1850
Registration District Sheppey
County Kent
Event Place Sheppey, Kent, England
Volume 5
Page 467
Line Number 5

John Keir probably married one of the following people

Name Caroline Eccles

Donald Keir

England and Wales Census, 1911

Name Donald Keir
Event Type Census
Event Date 1911
County Kent
Parish Chatham
Sub-District Rochester And Chatham
Registration District Medway
Gender Male
Age 52
Birthplace Isle Of Shippey
Record Type Household

John William Keir

England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007

Name John William Keir
Event Type Death
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year 1882
Registration District Medway
County Kent
Event Place Medway, Kent, England
Age (available after 1866) 30
Birth Year (Estimated) 1852
Volume 2A
Page 338
Line Number 315

Name John William Keir
Event Type Birth Registration
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year 1851
Registration District Sheppey
County Kent
Event Place Sheppey, Kent, England
Volume V
Page 508
Line Number 39

Elisa Keir

England and Wales Census, 1871

Name Elisa Keir
Event Type Census
Event Date 1871
Event Place Sheerness, Minster, Kent, England
Enumeration District 14e
Gender Female
Age 17
Marital Status Single
Occupation Assistant
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Birth Year (Estimated) 1854
Birthplace Sheerness, Kent
Entry Number 8
Affiliate Image Identifier GBC/1871/0987/0102


John Keir Head M 50 Scotland
Elisa Keir Daughter F 17 Sheerness, Kent
Caroline Keir Wife F 46 Kent, Sheerness
Walter Keir Son M 13 Kent, Sheerness
Donald Keir Son M 12 Kent, Sheerness
Edward Keir Son M 10 Kent, Sheerness
Ellen Keir Daughter F 8 Kent, Sheerness
Emma Keir Daughter F 6 Kent, Sheerness
Clara Keir Daughter F 2 Sheerness, Kent

its spelt Sheppey Kent

Not sure what you are now looking for ???

:-)

Hey to all I have a John William Keir born Sheppy Kent 1852 to a John Keir and Caroline Eccles, Married Sarah Ann Firman or an Anne Wilders 1873, Dartford, Kent folio or volume 2A Page 435, mentioned think 1881 census as a patient at,St Pancras, Middlesex, England a dockworker married and died 1882 but not sure what of or why. I have found his Grand father I think Danil Kerr in Greyfriars Cemetery Perth a Vinter, 1834 aged 46 but no mention of family or anything much. Scotlands People don't seem to know or indeed have his death and the achieves in council don't seem to know much, haven't been able to find anything in any papers but might be looking at wrong ones. Opps this is Daniel Keir that was married to Charlotte Dick

Thanks again for all the past information that has been passed on

Chris