General Chat

We have lots of deer around us, but they don't come into the garden very often.

There are warning notices on most of the roads round here, and locals keep a good look out. Tourists aren't so aware. As for the time of year, deer cross the roads at any time they feel like, summer or winter, and seem to make a point of appearing right in front of you!! I have been lucky so far, with a few near misses, but I know several drivers who haven't managed to stop in time - most of the damage is done to the deer, so you have to wait for the police to arrive if it's blocking the road.

For those who are interested, here are a few facts and figures.

http://www.countryfile.com/explore-countryside/wildlife/deer-culling-britain-facts-and-statistics

I used to shoot a lot of fallow deer in Essex, and the odd muntjac. It didn't cost me a penny as the farmer was fed up with the damage that they do. As for shooting badgers with a .22, that would leave a lot of injured badgers about. It is not nearly powerful enough. At the very minimum it would need a .22/250 centre fire. And no, I have never shot a badger!

If, by Slaughters, you mean John Strange, the Butcher, I believe the shop closed down because his children had their own businesses, and didn't want to be butchers. Up until the end, Strange had many people he supplied venison to - including many 'top' hotels and restaurants. He was a very wealthy man, not close to bankruptcy at all, he made a lot of money supplying venison.

As for DEFRA recruiting anyone with a .22 rifle and a night sight - you seem to forget that the person with such things has to want to slaughter badgers for no reason, or do you presume anyone with such armaments would do anything for money?

Also, there hasn't been much Badger Culling in Hampshire, and the Council is against it.

As for 'draining some of the few remaining wetlands just outside the forest boundaries and build naff houses', no, they're proposing to build new houses on the outskirts of already substantially developed towns/villages. Very little (if any) wetland drainage is involved. Perhaps some around Marchwood, but there's already a huge village and industrial estate there, and it's quite a long way away from the Forest.

There are plenty of wetlands within the Forest, not that there's any evidence that adders prefer wetlands.

There is no sgnificant market for venison or indeed game in general in the UK which is one reason why Slaughters in Lyndhurst closed down. Sure there is a niche but no more than that.

Why would sports shooting be "inappropriate" in the New Forest? There will be plenty of shooting pheasants come October most of which is for sport not the pot. There is touristic deer stalking anyway but very small scale.

Sure deer are pretty but they are crowding out the other creatures and fauna.

I am dead against badger culling. The science is complex but clear enough to show that culling badgers won't improve matters but most likely make them worse. Nevertheless DEFRA wwill recruit just about anybody with a 22 rifle and a night sight. The deviance from their rules and actuality last year in Droset was very wide indeed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/347541/badger-cull-controlled-shooting-guidance-2014.pdf

The policy allowing over grazing in the forest is similar to that proposed for UK fisheries once UK fishermen have been freed from the tyranny of the EU by "brexit" .

Getting back to snakes and their habitat the developer's now have plans to drain some of the few remaining wetlands just outside the forest boundaries and build naff houses. No wonder they end up in people's gardens.

Pretty dismal all round really.
:-(

My friend isn't a verderer, nor is the venison seller, and neither are involved in Badger culling. 'Sports' shooting would be totally inappropriate on the New Forest.
As for the expense - 'goods in return', with a proportion going to the Forest wouldn't appear to cost the Park anything.

Overgrazing has happened due to greed.
A payment introduced years ago, the Verderers’ Grazing Scheme (VGS), which was part of the £19m European-funded New Forest Higher Level Stewardship scheme, £86 is paid per head of cattle and £68.80 per pony.

Then last year, a new 'system' was introduced - the (again) EU-funded Basic Payment Scheme (BPS) introduced to help farmers. Under the BPS commoners can receive around £448 per cow and £269 per pony with no cap on payments.

The latter 'system' is the reason the number of cattle has risen.
Get paid for letting your cattle feed for free, then get more money when they're slaughtered!

Sorry I should have said "effectively culled ..." . The efforts of the New Forest verderers don't even scratch the surface of the problem. A possible solution might be to have a lot more sports shooting but large scale culling of bambi's dad by rich German bizmen would not be good pr I guess. People are so nesh.

To repeat the cost of culling deer to the extent needed is too high to be met by the Forestry Commission inc the New Forest. There are just not enough guns anyway especially allowing for the upcoming badger massacre.

As you say the commoners have far, far too many cattle, ponies and so on grazing - the number of pones on the forest lawns has increased . x 4 in 20 years most destined for the Belgian pet food industry.

" The only places where the deer population are held in check in this way are the royal parks such as Richmond. Epping is no longer a royal park."


Strange, as my friend officially culls deer on the New Forest - but even he says not enough are culled, and he has problems with 'bunny huggers'.
Also, the venison I buy on the market has been officially culled - by the man who sells it to me - he even tells me where and when it was killed!!

The New Forest habitat has had problems since the EU gave subsidies for cattle grazing. Some commoners (one in particular) on the New Forest decided they could get even more cattle, let them graze solely on the New Forest, rather than feed them himself, and fill his pockets with EU money. :-S

Cattle have always grazed the New Forest - but not in their hundreds - and not transported around the Forest to the best grazing.
They're traditionally let out on land around the commoner's 'area', and usually wander back for an evening feed !!

The problem is that you can't tell wolves not to attack livestock! Don't think anyone would welcome them into populated areas.

There is any amount of documentation about the serious habitat damage which is being caused in the UK by a deer population running out of control. Here is reference from the Forestry Commission.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcin36.pdf/$FILE/fcin36.pdf

You cannot see a deer jumping out half a mile ahead on Bodmin Moor (not a deer favorite anyway) or anywhere else. The main problem is in the autumn through to the year end when the deer are in rut and abandon usual caution and just leap across roads regardless of traffic. The only defence is to keep speed below 40 mph. As the rutting tracks are well known and often signed (Essex is too mean to do so) not impossible. The majority of drivers hitting a deer (or horse/pony/cattle) above 50 mph end up in the mortuary..

Culling deer by shooting is expensive and needs a lot of skill. The only places where the deer population are held in check in this way are the royal parks such as Richmond. Epping is no longer a royal park.

Unless the deer population is drastically reduced then the habitat damage will be irreversible. Wolves are an ideal way to sort it out - low cost, will especially deal with small foreign species such as the muntjac and invisible to most people.

http://www.wolvesandhumans.org/wolves/wolf_reintroduction_to_scotland.htm



Parts of Europe have well established wolf populations and the Americans have brought them back to the Yellowstone. The habitat benefits are massive while there have been no cases of attacks on people. In France the government shells out for around 100 lambs/sheep killed by wolves each year at a rate well above market value.

I love seeing deer, there are plenty around Essex and they regularly get hit by cars as drivers are not prepared for them to shoot out of the hedges whereas on places like Bodmin Moor you can see them half a mile ahead.

I had a fright travelling home on my motorbike about ten years ago when one shot across yards in front of me, so close that I heard its hooves scrabble on the tarmac above the noise of the engine.

I dread to think what would have happened if I'd hit it at 50mph or so, I think I'd have come off the worst!

Hmm, don't think we need the return of the wolf to cull deer.
More official marksmen, and cheaper venison is what's needed!!
A couple of years go, a friend and I came across a gathering of 100+ deer in the New Forest - and this wasn't on a 'deer sanctuary' :-S

Oh - and one young white deer lurking in a bush!!!

As for the damage caused by cattle, I have to agree with Joan.
They regularly invaded our garden when we lived on Dartmoor :-(

Brian, I agree with Sharron.
Have to admit you were lucky it moved :-D

I came across one by a tree, but on the path side, at a 'horsey' event at New Park in the New Forest.
We thought it better it removed itself from such easy access to people, children and dogs, so I started stamping my feet, then jumping, getting nearer and nearer, in the hope the vibration would make it move.
I was about 6 inches from it, within 'striking' distance, had it had the inclination (I was wearing very sturdy yard boots and jeans) before it decided it had had enough - and moved the other side of the tree!! :-0

Extremely unlikely to be an adder more probable a grass snake. Grass snakes can bit - they are carniverous - but not poisonous.

Snakes have to bask in the sun otherwise they cannot move fast enough to hunt.

As Sharon says neither will launch an attack unless very threatened just let them be. The mania for tidy gardens, decking, effective fences, gravel and goodness knows what is having a terrible effect on British wildlife.which has to survive somehow in shrinking unconnected habitats.

Deer are totally out of control and causing a lot of damage. We need the return of the wolf.

I'm doing what Sharron suggests and leaving it alone,

But I don't think snakes like open ground so am working on tidying up that area so there are fewer places for it to get comfy in and I can see that it's snake free.

I'm with AnnC and would be off like a shot!! Keep a close watch on your puppy.

Just leave it alone. It has probably been there a long time and it really doesn't want to bother you.

Just keep the puppy out of that bit if you can. The odds of them meeting are not that great and the adder would far rather slither away than tangle with you or the puppy.

I'd have to move house immediately :-( :-( :-(

Went down to the end of the garden yesterday where a fenced off area is full of oddities such as an incinerator, compost containers, spare flower pots, bricks, odd fence panels , wheelbarrow etc. etc.

It's got a bit overgrown and I went to the compost to put some cabbage cut-offs in.
Turned round to come out and came face to face with a snake.

I'm not a snake expert but having Googled British Snakes it looked a bit too much like an adder for comfort.

It shot off when it saw me, I think into next door's garden but as we have a young puppy I spent some time hoeing out excess grass and weeds where it had been sunning itself.