General Chat

Sylvia building and construction law and practice in the UK are not at all the same as in Canada.

In particular having an architect in overall control of a project is not assured. The calculations for materials and quantities are usually the task of quantity surveyors and building engineers. The Tories see building regulations etc as a restraint on trade. Following several serious fires they have refused to amend regulations. An in depth report on UK fire safety has been embargoed. The powers and reach of the fire brigade have been seriously weakened. Now, at least in London, you can shop around for fire safety inspections and sign off.

In the case of Grenfell Ct the various sub contractors got on with their work with minimal control and coordination from anybody least of all architects. This together with the disappearance of once strong LA buildin know how is typical in today's Britain.

As soon as a judge led inquiry is announced everybody clams up. That has already happened. Next there will be long delays while the judge sets up his/her enquiry. Ministers can and do decide on its scope and powers. At least two years will pass before a report often far longer. In the meantime all concerned are muffled in what can be said and the media restricted in their reporting. Perfect for kicking problem into the long grass.

Given that there are a large number of similar inhabited buildings and a lot of cladding work in progress the need for investigation, conclusion and action is urgent.

You do sometimes get conflict between client and contractors.

OH designed a safety control system &, because of the large number of cables the client needed, had to create an underfloor void. The client insisted that the void should be flooded with CO2 if there was an electrical fire. It was explained that the pressure required would blow the upper surface into the room. That could result in fatalities. There was a a safer alternative which required fewer pressurised tanks. "The client is always right" even when there's a better alternative.

I await his comment in the morning, he never explained why the enquiry shouldn't be done by a judge.

;-)

In this case ................

yes

Thems' fighting words Sylvia, are you sure you know more than Rollo :-)

Rollo posted ...........

"I am a civil engineer but def not a buildings engineer. Neither are you and more importantly are architects. "


Despite what you say ........... architects do know building materials, and, in fact, have to be knowledgeable about what is available so they can specify what is required or not worth while.


The plans produced by an architect ALSO specify the building materials and, in some cases, the interior furnishings. When developing a design, an architect follows building codes, zoning laws, fire regulations, and other ordinances, such as those requiring easy access by people who are disabled.


I do know more than you about this!

Bob, we have had a fire blanket hanging in the stairwell for several years. It's not been opened at all but perhaps you can tell me whether I ought to check it, please? It's not something I've ever thought about doing.

I would also say, from experience, that fire equipment in communal spaces very often gets vandalised. Smoke detectors get covered so they don't set the alarm off when smoking, fire doors get wedged open, fire resisting glass gets smashed. I could go on. I am not saying that this happened in Tuesday's fire, and we will probably never know.

If you have a small dry powder extinguisher, give it a vigorous shake every now and again as the contents settle. Also, be careful where you point it as it can quickly fill a small space and you may not be able to see. Although the contents are not toxic, they may suffocate you. (After all, that is what they do to the fire) If you only ever have one extinguisher, I would recommend a blanket. I speak as an ex fireman.

Agree, Maggie. If cars are recalled, so should domestic appliances and they either ought to be repaired immediately or a new appliance given.

Many years ago when I lived elsewhere, I went out leaving the tumble drier in the laundry room on cool dry for a short period. When I returned it was still on (one hour later) and hot. The items had shrunk - one I was particularly annoyed about was an Arran jumper that I'd knitted for my son. I got a new machine and was fairly recompensed without delay - but I know my rights as I'm sure you do.

As I wrote earlier, it is going to be difficult to apportion blame because one thing seems to have led to another by all accounts.

Then there's manufacturers selling unsafe electrical appliances.
Hotpoint, Indesit, Creda, Swan and Proline Tumble Dryers are all made by Whirlpool. A block of flats in London caught fire last year, due to one of these appliances. As of February of this year - this was how things stood:

"Whirlpool has written to 3.8 million owners of the affected dryers, but as many as 2.4 million have not responded. The company has written to them again, offering to repair their machines.

A further 100,000 customers have registered, but not yet organised a repair.

"Since the launch of this campaign, safety has been our number one priority," Whirlpool said.

"We have consistently responded to the advice of Trading Standards and continue to do so. Trading Standards have now notified us that updated usage advice should be communicated to consumers and we are implementing this."

Which? called for a full recall programme of the faulty machines.

The consumer group has already launched a legal bid to force Trading Standards to take stronger action over the tumble dryers.

"Fundamentally, we now believe a full recall is necessary, and the Government must urgently address the issues with the product safety system as it shouldn't require the threat of judicial review to ensure that consumers are protected from dangerous products," said Alex Neill, managing director of home and legal services at Which?"

Full article here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39052979

Zafira cars have had 2 recalls due to their just catching fire.

How were these things allowed to be sold, and once it was realised there was a fault, why weren't they recalled immediately, and owners provided with a safe one.

As a civil engineer, Rollo, your strengths will have likely added a certain dimension to your Board. My brother added a legal dimension to his.

It is right that Board members are chosen from a variety of skills as well as from residents.

Your points make com,eye sense to me.

Edit: common sense

"Put not your trust in judge led enquiries. "

Why and what would you recommend instead?

Catch 22. The cost of tearing down several thousand high rise , some private, would have to be paid for somehow. Refurbishment with tenants in place is a cost effective way of reducing energy costs, v important for people on low income , without needing to decant tenants.

Pretty obviously the methods and materials used need a rethink. Last ditch sprinkler systems may be the default requirement. The problems of Latimer Rd v likely exist in malls, public buildings and offices. The low regulation profit led approach does not work if it allows this kind if catastrophe.

There is a thriving trade in used domestic appliances free of any kind of regulation. Even new appliances have problems. Used devices - fridge, tv, tumble dryer, toasters especially, need some kind of check. A good start would be to allow tenants in social housing access to consumer credit on fair terms. As it is companies such as Brighthouse are running large scale legal larceny.

Put not your trust in judge led enquiries.

Whilst obviously feeling hopeless in regards the poor people in this building, I also really feel awful for the thoughts the people living in similar buildings right now must be having. You have to think if you're in one with kids especially you'd be taking turns to sleep so someone is always awake if you couldn't temp. move out .

What it boils down to, and I'm sorry that this will offend, is that the poorest are always given the crap housing ( I moderated my first expression). Nobody with children, no one disabled or old should be put 21 floors up. These old monstrosities should not be repaired they should be pulled down ( should have been done 20 years ago).

That's been my opinion for many years, and nothing and no one will change my mind on it.

Its unbeliable that by reports a fridge explolsion caused such devastation.

I've no knowledge or seen a fridge explode nor desire to,but they do and is one of the most potent appliances in a home.



so where did this rampant blaze start? Noel’s fridge-freezer, said firefighters. Indeed, this most basic of household appliances is where hundreds of house fires start every year.
In the past five years, London Fire Brigade has attended at least one blaze every week — 260 in total — involving fridges and freezers. These have led to 71 serious injuries

article dated 2015.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3183412/Could-fridge-burn-house-t-switch-packed-inflammable-insulation-toxic-gas-s-dangerous-appliance-all.html#ixzz4k4vcpno7
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I've never had a go at any of the tenants board members or not.

Someone somewhere made a lot of money from running these buildings on behalf of the council.

So, Caroline, you don't mean the KCTMO Board but rather the property management services run by someone else?

Did all of the Board member residents survive, by the way?

A sad business.

"www.kctmo.org.uk/main/30/assets-and-regeneration"