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Thanks to everyone who helped me with William Brogan and the Old Bailey etc. This information proved that it was not my William Brogan (b1857) who tried to murder his daughter annie (age 9). My William Brogan's only daughter was Rosina born early 1891, adopted at birth - she would only have been about 9 months old.
The last place where we know William Brogan (b1857) was was in a Poor House in London in Nov/Dec 1892 present at the christening of my Grandfather Albert Henry (born April 1892), also with his wife Elizabeth Mary (nee Ord). Neither of them appear in any Census at all, so think they might both be in Poor Houses. Can't get into records on Ancestry so wondered if anyone has access to look these 2 people up for me.
thanks

Poor Law Records will be at the LRO...Local Reocord Office - Archives

1891 census transcription details for: H M Prison Wandsworth, Wandsworth Common
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12 Piece: 451 Folio: 80 Page: 15

Reg. District: Wandsworth Sub District: Wandsworth
Parish: Wandsworth Enum. District: 34
Ecclesiastical District: St Mary Magdalene City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Wandsworth
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
BROGAN, William Prisoner Married M 34 1857 Boot Rivetter
GlasgowScotland


Place of birth is Glasgow Scotland where your William was born and same dob!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William Brogan
Name: William Brogan
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Mary Ord
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 05 Oct 1884
Parish: St Mary, Battersea
County: Surrey
Borough: Wandsworth
Father Name: William Brogan
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Ord

Heres the marriage

So glad that it was not your William that we had looked up Jacqueline! Wouldn't have wanted him to be in my tree. He sounded a nasty piece of work, even though he was mentally unwell.
Looks like Moody above has found that one.

For ref http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1244683

Liz

ELIZABETH BROGAN NEE ORD??

1901 census transcription details for: 5, Effra Raod, Lambeth
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13 Piece: 431 Folio: 27 Page: 45

Reg. District: Lambeth Sub District: Brixton
Parish: Lambeth Enum. District: 43
Ecclesiastical District: St Matthews City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 5, Effra Raod, Lambeth
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
DANN, Henry H G Head Married M 61 1840 Estate & Insurance Manager
StockwellLondon
DANN, Emma Wife Married F 52 1849
WestminsterLondon
BAKER, William Son-In-Law Married M 31 1870 Manufacturers Agent
Mount Vernon N B Scotland
BAKER, Rose F Daughter Married F 33 1868
StockwellLondon
WHITE, Arthur E C Boarder Single M 40 1861 Accountant
SouthamptonHampshire
SPURLING, Albert Boarder Single M 31 1870 Bank Clerk
CamberwellLondon
SCHWOBEL, Henry Boarder Single M 23 1878 Comml Clerk
Henttentlial Germany F S
LESPINAS, Henry Boarder Single M 19 1882
Claremont Fewand France F S
WELHAM, Caroline Servant Single F 19 1882 Housemaid Domestic)
StowmarketSuffolk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BROGAN, Elizabeth Servant Married F 40 1861 Cook Domestic
Hammersmith
TOZER, Suzan Servant Single F 21 1880 Housemaid Domestic
SwindonWiltshire



1891 census transcription details for: 2, Avenue, Lambeth
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12 Piece: 408 Folio: 8 Page: 7

Reg. District: Lambeth Sub District: Brixton
Parish: Lambeth Enum. District: 6
Ecclesiastical District: St Pauls West Brixton City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 2, Avenue, Lambeth
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
DANN, Henry Head Married M 57 1834 Estate Agent
StockwellLondon
DANN, Emma Wife Married F 40 1851
WestminsterLondon
LEFEURE, Emile Visitor Married M 69 1822 Wool Merchant
French Not a British Subject
WHITE, Arthur E C Visitor Married M 30 1861 Accountant
NorthamptonNorthamptonshire
DENNIS, George Visitor Single M 17 1874 Student
French Not a British Subject
>>>>>>>>>>>>BROGAN, Elizth Servant Married F 28 1863 Cook Domestic Servant
HammersmithLondon
WILKINS, Elizth Servant Married F 30 1861 House Maid Domestic Servant
Ireland Dublin

1861 Scotland Census
about William Brogan
Name: William Brogan
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relationship: Son
Father's Name: William Brogan
Mother's Name: Rosanna Brogan
Gender: Male
Where born: Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 475
Registration district: Campsie
Civil parish: Campsie
County: Stirlingshire
Address: Dalglish's Buildings
ED: 8
Household schedule number: 56
Line: 25
Roll: CSSCT1861_63
Household Members:
Name Age
William Brogan 27
Rosanna Brogan 23
William Brogan 4
Thomas Brogan 2
Mary Brogan 11 MO

Is this him?

ELIZABETH BROGAN WITH A SON BORN 1885?


1911 census transcription details for: 23 Alford Road Union Grove S W
National Archive Reference:
RG14PN2264 RG78PN77 RD26 SD4 ED14 SN117

Reg. District: Wandsworth Sub District: Clapham
Parish: Wandsworth Borough Enum. District: 14
Address: 23 Alford Road Union Grove S W
County: London
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
BROGAN, Elizabeth Head Married
27 years F 49 1862 Domestic Rose Cottage Hammersmith
BROGAN, William Son Single M 25 1886 Waiter York Rd Westminster

NOTE:-
This Elizabeth would have been married 1884


POSSIBLE BIRTH of the son William b 1885/6

Births Sep 1885
Brogan William Thomas Lambeth 1d 349

The son William in 1891?

1891 England Census
about William Brogan
Name: William Brogan
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation: Pauper Inmate (Pauper)
Where born: N
Civil parish: Fulham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrews
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: Fulham
Sub-registration district: Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: Fulham Union Infirmary
Neighbors: View others on page



1901 England Census
about William Brogan
Name: William Brogan
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Male
Where born: Fulham, London, England
Civil parish: Edmonton
Ecclesiastical parish: Upper Edmonton St James
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Edmonton
ED, institution, or vessel: Strand Union Infant Establishment
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1

This son's death?

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about William T Brogan
Name: William T Brogan
Death Registration Month/Year: 1969
Age at death (estimated): 83
Registration district: Brighton
Inferred County: Sussex
Volume: 5h
Page: 166

Same family in 1871 (wrongly transcribed ) as in the 1861 census above that Helen found.


1871 Scotland Census
about William Bergand
Name: William Bergand
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relationship: Son
Father's Name: William Bergand
Mother's Name: Rosine Bergand
Gender: Male
Where born: Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 475
Registration district: Campsie
Civil parish: Campsie
County: Stirlingshire
Address: Main Street Bronna Land
Occupation: Print Work Hand
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 69
Line: 10
Roll: CSSCT1871_82
Household Members:
Name Age
William Bergand 36
Rosine Bergand 31
William Bergand 14
Thomas Bergand 12
Mary Bergand 10
Lehtia Bergand 8
John Bergand 6
James Bergand 4
Rosina Bergand 2
Ann Bergand 4 MO

note that Rosina appears to be a family name?

1881 I think has him wrongly transcribed as his mother's husband! believe this is his fathers death:-

1878 BROGAN WILLIAM M 44 GORBALS GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/12 0048


1881 Scotland Census
about Wm Brogan
Name: Wm Brogan
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Rosann Brogan
Gender: Male
Where born: Campsie, Lennoxtown
Registration Number: 644/3
Registration district: Dennistoun
Civil parish: Glasgow Townhead
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 51 Rosemount St
Occupation: Bleachfield Labourer
ED: 50
Household schedule number: 27
Line: 1
Roll: cssct1881_220
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm Brogan 27
Rosann Brogan 42
Letitia Brogan 19
John Brogan 17
James Brogan 15
Rosann Brogan 13
Ann Brogan 11
Joseph Brogan 8
Margaret Brogan 6
Curniules Brogan 4

It is him, age 4, thanks. He just disappears from all records after his youngest son's christening in a Poor House in London in 1892.

Williams father's occupation on Williams marriage certificate says printer and on the 1861 census above in Scotland that Williams father's occupation is Printfield Labourer 1871 is Print Work Labourer.

What was his occupation on his childrens birth certificates?

Birth for William.

WILLIAM BROGAN Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
22 MAY 1856 Springburn, Lanark, Scotland
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: WILLIAM BROGAN Family
Mother: ROSANNE MARTIN

and a submitted entry.


HUSBAND
William Brogan Pedigree

Birth: 1830 Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
Christening:
Marriage: 27 MAY 1855 Lennoxtown, Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
Death:
Burial:



Father: Thomas Brogan Family
Mother: Letitia Campbell
Wife

Rosina Martin Pedigree

Birth: 1838 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Christening:
Marriage: 27 MAY 1855 Lennoxtown, Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
Death:
Burial:



Father: Cornelius Martin Family
Mother: Margaret Mc Queen
Children
1. William Brogan Pedigree
Male


Birth: 1857 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

2. Thomas Brogan Pedigree
Male


Birth: 1859 Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

3. Unavailable Pedigree

Looking at the 1901 census for possibly Elizabeth, I noticed the name of the road and the area.
In your previous post, we thought that maybe William had been put into an asylum. Look at this coincidence.


Effra Hall (Lunatic Asylum), Brixton, LAMBETH

It is, but can't be the same as the William Brogan in prison for attempting to murder his 9 year old daughter because his only daughter was only about 10 months old in 1891 and adopted at birth!

I recently visited the London archives in Northampton street, London, about 10mins walk from Farringdon tube station. I found all sorts of interesting work house records for Ashford workhouse including admissions and discharge register, medical records and punishment books!! Some things made me smile, others brought a tear to my eye. Some records are on microfiche and others are the actual books that the matrons and masters wrote in. I am pretty sure that they have all of the london workhouse records but worth a telephone call to them in advance - tel 0207 3323820 the staff will check what they have before you travel and they are so helpful. take some small change so you can photo copy records and you are only allowed to use pencil not pen whilst making notes. The records i viewed dated back to 1856 so you should find details of your relative. Good luck...

Re Herbert Brogan b 1887 and William Brogan b 1885 they are both in the same poorhouse, Fulham Union Infirmary, in the 1891 census. On the original image, Herbert is on page 9 and William is on page 12. To maybe clarify if the William in the 1911 census is the same person and in turn prove the census' for Elizabeth Brogan, it may be beneficial to purchase the birth certificate of William.

1 1856 BROGAN WILLIAM M SPRINGBURN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 622/02 0152
this one above is your ancestor and he too was born in a Poor House 22 May 1856( I have the image if you would like it) His father listed as Printer


2 1856 BROGAN WILLIAM M OLD MONKLAND (MIDDLE DISTRICT) /LANARK 652/02 0684

maybe this is the other one?
born 29 Oct 1856 father Michael Brogan , Collier, mother Mary Brogan nee Brown

Do you have the death of Elizabeth Mary Brogan nee Ord?

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Elizabeth M Brogan
Name: Elizabeth M Brogan
Death Registration Month/Year: 1947
Age at death (estimated): 84
Registration district: Uxbridge
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 5f
Page: 441


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Elizabeth Brogan
Name: Elizabeth Brogan
Death Registration Month/Year: 1947
Age at death (estimated): 84
Registration district: Uxbridge
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 5f
Page: 441


If so, who registered the death?

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Letitia Barrell
Name: Letitia Barrell
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Spouse Name: George Downs
Spouse Age: 27
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 16 Mar 1902
Parish: St Paul, Dock Street
County: London
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Barrell ( deceased labour)
Spouse Father Name: Alfred Downs